# OK Now I am asking in Great Debates... Whites cannot use the N word and blacks can. Racist idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219 "2013-06-29T20:27:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/181 "2013-08-16T04:07:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What idiot told you that “Italians, Jews, and Irish” in the 18th and 19th Century weren’t considered white? > > They were certainly discriminated against, but always considered whites, if lesser whites. > > If not, they wouldn’t have been able to become US citizens since until 1952(!) by law in order to become naturalized citizens one had to be a “free, white person”. > > That’s why during the 19th Century Chinese immigrants couldn’t become US citizens while the Jews, Irish, and Italians practically became citizens after they stepped off the boat. In fact, until SCOTUS stepped in in 1885, the children of Chinese immigrants born in the US weren’t citizens. > > The Irish, Italians and Jews faced lots of social discrimination, but they never encountered the legal discrimination that the Chinese faced because they were still whites albeit lesser or other whites. As Miller has noted, there have been varying definitions of “white” that have not always been those identified by law. There are still groups who insist that Italians and Greeks (and Spaniards?) are not “white.” The definitions are malleable. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/182 "2013-08-16T04:51:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The government’s definition of “white” was not the only definition in use at the time. Fair enough. On reflection, I really shouldn’t have added the line, “What idiot told you that “Italians, Jews, and Irish” in the 18th and 19th Century weren’t considered white?” It was grossly unfair and insulting. I shouldn’t have said it and sincerely apologize for using it. However, respectfully, when one compares the history of the Chinese and Japanese in America and compares it to the treatment of Jewish, Italian, and Irish Americans it’s pretty clear that they were considered white. For that matter, anti-Semitism in the US was vastly worse in the early 20th Century than it was in the 19th Century when you could have a Jew serving as the Confederate Vice President without anyone batting an eyelash. The last part is not just my opinion but that of Howard Sachar, author of The History of Jews in America, who is probably considered the leading authority on the history of American Jews. Again, I can see where you’re coming from, but just because the Irish, Jews and Italians faced prejudice and discrimination didn’t mean they weren’t considered white. The Irish and the Poles still face significant discrimination in the UK but they’re still considered white. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/183 "2013-08-16T05:11:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For that matter, anti-Semitism in the US was vastly worse in the early 20th Century than it was in the 19th Century when you could have a Jew serving as the Confederate Vice President without anyone batting an eyelash. Prior to the 1880s, the majority of (the rather small) Jewish immigrant communities were Sephardic Jews from the Netherlands and surrounding areas and were liable to be seen as “Dutchmen” with odd religious beliefs. Virulent anti-semitism began with the massive influx of Ashkenazi Jews from Russia and Russian dominated Poland and Ukraine, who arrived with radically different dress, language, and customs. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/184 "2013-08-16T14:31:21Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Am opening this thread because I am curious about black arguments for it. > > Seems like a no brainer to me. Definitely a racist idea. Quite simple…they took the word used to hurt them, and made it an endearment that only they can use. It’s hardly racist and I guess you don’t understand the concept of racism An analogy is a fat person making fun of himself, but it isn’t funny when others call him fatso to hurt him. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/185 "2013-08-16T14:54:05Z")
> [@Renee\_RL](#): > > Quite simple…they took the word used to hurt them, and made it an endearment that only they can use. It’s hardly racist and I guess you don’t understand the concept of racism > An analogy is a fat person making fun of himself, but it isn’t funny when others call him fatso to hurt him. I’d think quite opposite would be way to go… making it okay for blacks (mind you, ANY black person regardless of degree of hurt) is just perpetuating and cementing prior relationships into existing zeitgeist that will thus span into future and affect kids that should not – by standards of even today’s society – be aware of it. That’s why one (anyone) should oppose ANY use of the word if one is interested in a future where no remnants of the old would hinder relationships. What good is it when a kid born in 21st century gets to use it and his neighbor/schoolmate/friend cannot? Is that the best a black kid can hope for? Is that a secret “social benefit” of being black skinned? Jesus :rolleyes: This idea that somehow “they” (you know who they are, right) get to use it because they mean something else is absolutely ridiculous – I for one would not let my kid hang out with a kid that somehow has a “right” to say it and then make a point that my kid cannot because he’s white. I’m actually flabbergasted (angry, maybe) how people in US come up with new ways to maintain same divisions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/186 "2013-08-16T17:18:03Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Walk up to a group of black men who are just hanging and talking among themselves. Use the word you are so fascinated with and see what happens. Do it soon and resolve your issues. They might castigate you severely. That’s what you are getting at, right? The word is rude, obscene and a provocation. Got it? Doesn’t matter about the color of your skin, the word is nasty for all the baggage that it carries with it. Don’t use it around me, regardless of your skin color. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/187 "2013-08-16T17:47:13Z")
I have read variations of this argument so many times on the internet and always wonder, why on earth would a white person want to use this word? is there really some thought you must express that can only be conveyed by the word “nigger”? Just sayin ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/188 "2013-08-16T19:50:05Z")
> [@huck](#): > > I have read variations of this argument so many times on the internet and always wonder, why on earth would a white person want to use this word? is there really some thought you must express that can only be conveyed by the word “nigger”? > > Just sayin Suppose you are a racist and want the world to know it? ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/189 "2013-08-16T20:24:30Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Suppose you are a racist and want the world to know it? Seems like the only explanation to me ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/190 "2013-08-16T21:57:07Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This idea that somehow “they” (you know who they are, right) get to use it because they mean something else is absolutely ridiculous – I for one would not let my kid hang out with a kid that somehow has a “right” to say it and then make a point that my kid cannot because he’s white. It’s not about your kid being white… It’s about your kid not ever having been told he’s a nigger, with all the attendent abuse that goes along with it. Because if someone is black and calls someone a “nigger”, people are going to know that this person is being sarcastic. Frankly, if your kid is white, and is a good person, he or she will probably be able to use it with close friends because they will know that he doesn’t mean it. It’s not about race per se - it’s about who you’re talking to knowing what you mean when you use the word. Frankly, if you can’t understand the how a black person has a different experience of that word being used about them, I doubt you have the understanding of how their usage is fundamentally different than yours. ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/191 "2013-08-16T22:38:04Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > OK, here’s the real point. You hear some black people refer to themselves and their black friends as “niggers”, and you think that the equivalent for you is to be able to refer to them using the same word. But it’s not the same thing: for you, the equivalent would be to refer to yourself and your white friends by some insulting word, e.g., “honky” or “white trash”. Go ahead and do that if it makes you want to be more racially equal. I basically agree w/Giles here. I’m just thinking about a reverse discrimination that ‘white boys’ often encounter here in Hawaii… Caucasian’s are called 'HAOLE’s (howly’s) here. A haole is the Hawaiian equivalent of the old-school American ‘nigger’. The one exception to the ‘racist rule’ HERE is that anybody & everybody can, will, & does use the word, no problem, no foul. I don’t use ‘the N-word’ in conversation myself, but I can understand how black people can use it freely w/each other without any racist connotations whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/192 "2013-08-16T22:57:22Z")
> [@TARL\_FURY](#): > > I basically agree w/Giles here. I’m just thinking about a reverse discrimination that ‘white boys’ often encounter here in Hawaii… Caucasian’s are called 'HAOLE’s (howly’s) here. A haole is the Hawaiian equivalent of the old-school American ‘nigger’. Does the word “haole” come from a centuries-long legacy of slavery, dehumanization, terrorism, and mass murder directed against white people? If not, I would hesitate in calling it equivalent to the n-word. ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/193 "2013-08-16T23:44:47Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Does the word “haole” come from a centuries-long legacy of slavery, dehumanization, terrorism, and mass murder directed against white people? If not, I would hesitate in calling it equivalent to the n-word. YOU would hesitate, but calling a spade a spade is totally me. Individual people use & interpret words differently, but respect is one thing; disrespect another. I can easily tell the difference in people’s attitudes and emotions w/o going back in time. Just because we are now existing in the 21st century doesn’t keep me from becoming angry/defensive anytime I am personally insulted. Who really knows what will happen physically after some asshole feels the need to assert themselves verbally and basically challenges you to react? I’m not going there… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/194 "2013-08-17T14:38:13Z")
> [@TARL\_FURY](#): > > YOU would hesitate, but calling a spade a spade is totally me. Hur, hur, I made a funny. “Calling a spade a spade” get it. Hur, hur. ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/195 "2013-08-17T14:50:05Z")
I’m glad you appreciated my warped sense of humor. I plan on building my new website asap. Hopefully, I can turn it into a profitable online business. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/196 "2013-08-17T15:14:15Z")
When I was running a shop we had a small group of blacks who routinely used the N word while addressing one another. I finaly called them into the office and gave them a verbal warning that if I heard it again they would be written up for using racial slurs that could lead to termination. My reasoning was that we had several other black workers who found the word offensive and did not like hearing it throw around in such a way. I was always curious as to how the union would have handled that had it come to a filed grievance level. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/197 "2013-08-19T05:06:22Z")
> [@TARL\_FURY](#): > > I’m glad you appreciated my warped sense of humor. I plan on building my new website asap. Hopefully, I can turn it into a profitable online business. If by “warped sense of humor” you mean “racism” I guess you’re correct. For the record, I don’t mean that as an insult, but simply referring to the fact that by your own admission you like to use racial slurs as a means of humor. Since, by your own admission, you like to refer to use the racial slur “spade” for humorous purposes, how do you feel about the usage of “nigger”, “kike”, “spic”, “towel head” or similar slurs to show your “warped sense of humor”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/198 "2013-08-19T05:23:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > > [@TARL\_FURY](#): > > > > YOU would hesitate, but calling a spade a spade is totally me. > > Hur, hur, I made a funny. “Calling a spade a spade” get it. Hur, hur. Actually, this is nothing more than a display of ignorance, since the “calling a spade a spade” phrase has nothing to do with color and relies on a mistranslation of a similar Greek phrase by Erasmus. Linking the color of card pips to an expression of objects in a garden just promotes ignorance. We’re supposed to be fighting that. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/199 "2013-08-19T19:10:48Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Not going to think about trying that. I value my health. > > But isn’t this whole thing racist? Why is it racist? They are using it as a familiarity, an endearment ,…not a bigoted slur from white people. They own the word. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219/200 "2013-08-19T19:14:08Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I’d think quite opposite would be way to go… making it okay for blacks (mind you, ANY black person regardless of degree of hurt) is just perpetuating and cementing prior relationships into existing zeitgeist that will thus span into future and affect kids that should not – by standards of even today’s society – be aware of it. That’s why one (anyone) should oppose ANY use of the word if one is interested in a future where no remnants of the old would hinder relationships. > > What good is it when a kid born in 21st century gets to use it and his neighbor/schoolmate/friend cannot? Is that the best a black kid can hope for? Is that a secret “social benefit” of being black skinned? Jesus :rolleyes: > > This idea that somehow “they” (you know who they are, right) get to use it because they mean something else is absolutely ridiculous – I for one would not let my kid hang out with a kid that somehow has a “right” to say it and then make a point that my kid cannot because he’s white. > > I’m actually flabbergasted (angry, maybe) how people in US come up with new ways to maintain same divisions. What I am finding humorous is you are telling black people what they can and cannot say.they want to own the word…why does it bother you so? I would be more upset at the white people who use it to demean a race. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-i-am-asking-in-great-debates-whites-cannot-use-the-n-word-and-blacks-can-racist-idea/662219.md?page=11)