You really are not going to get any traction on that claim. Nigga is pretty clearly a phonetic rendering of nigger by dialects that lose final rhotic expression (including several versions of AAVE that originated in the rhotic-deprived South).
Given that black people who have condemned the use of nigger have generally condemned nigga, as well, I would suggest that trying to draw a semantic distinction between those words cannot, ultimately, be defended.
Bullshit. You really think the average black person can’t clearly enunciate the word nigger so that is doesn’t sound like nigga? They are two different words at this point as evidenced by their different spellings as well as the same people using both words differently. Doesn’t matter who pseudo-scientific dialectical nonsense you are gonna spout, when the reality is that people draw semantic distinctions between the two words on a daily basis.
While we are on the topic, let me clear up a few more things:
Black people don’t generally call anyone “nigger”
Those that use the term “nigga” in professional society are generally judged negatively for using it. It is not really socially acceptable in a professional setting, regardless of race. You are probably not gonna hear two Black doctors refer to each other as niggas.
As was stated before, few people care if you use either word regardless of your race. Like using any other word, you will be judged accordingly by society.
If you call a Black person a nigger, they are probably not going to fight you or try to hurt you. We are not animals looking for a reason to fight. You call some Black a nigger and he will probably laugh at you, or look at you like your crazy. This idea that Black people are more likely to assault someone because they use a racial slur is vaguely racist garbage, and the implication needs to stop.
I vote not racist.
I believe it is a form of racism, just I would think of any other form of out group/in group specifically focused on race, but consider the context. Black people by far suffered far worse indignities for far longer than any other race in the USA. Indians are the only group I can think of that have come close, it’s just there abuses are farther in history. Black people today still suffer in many ways in all areas of life. Things are getting better but they are far from perfect and until things are better for them, this phenomenon will continue. The wound is still fresh.
Who said anything about being unable to enunciate? Why look for insults when none have been offered?
I have lived in a couple areas of Detroit for years and have worked with folks who grew up in Chicago, Cleveland, and rural Alabama and Tennessee. Just as any other group, people from different regions have somewhat different pronunciations and I have heard a number of people use one word or the other in a hostile fashion or in a friendly fashion without switching pronunciations. The spelling “change” was popularized in the Rap community (I will not claim it originated there), and it may be working its way toward a separate meaning, but it arose from the pronunciation that preceded the spelling. (It could be my age and the ages of people with whom I associate, but I have only encountered the same people using separate pronunciations on TV or the movies. I am not saying that the change is not on the way, only that it had an origin in actual pronunciation and that the change is not complete.)
The separate spellings may very well indicate a change in meaning that is under way, (and I suspect that is very much a generational thing in which nigga may most often be used explicitly by younger people). However, that change has not completed and it is not cast in concrete. If you want to label my comment as “pseudo-scientific,” then show me the science that disproves it. Otherwise, I am simply going to have to dismiss your comments as misplaced recreational outrage. The pronunciation of nigga was not invented; the spelling was coined as the “natural eye” dialect of a word based on the way a large number of speakers pronounced it. (Similarly, no one would claim that a N’Yawker or Lawn Guylander were unable to enunciate New York or Long Island. No one would accuse various ethnic Italians of being unable to enunciate intial “I” sounds when they discuss something as 'Taliano. Noting that some accents, particularly several with Southern roots, tend to drop rhotics at the end of syllables is no more an accusation that the speakers are unable to enunciate those words than noting that a number of persons in New England affix rhotics to the ends of words ending in vowels is a silly claim that they are “unable” to clearly enunciate “Cuba” or “idea.”
(And if you claim that no black person has ever uttered “nigger” in a friendly context, I will simply laugh at you.)
The thing I don’t understand about these arguments is that there really isn’t a big divide between what is considered racist or not.
If a black person said, “All these niggers are moving in and ruining the town”, it would just be considered a form of internalized, self-loathing related racism.
Whereas if a clueless white guy went up to a black friend and said, “What’s up, my nigga”, nobody would think he is truly racist, just clueless.
It’s racist when it’s used to humiliate or hurt people. It’s generally not appropriate to use as slang unless you are in the group the typically uses it that way, like all slang.
If “nigger” and “nigga” are two completely separate terms with distinct and different meanings, why is “nigga” negatively regarded?
This is where your problem is: total ignorance about language.
Yeah, this. Words mean different things depending on who says them and in what context. It’s hard to believe someone could live for 70 years without noticing this simple, obvious truth.
I asked this question or a similar one of a black acquaintence, with whom I felt comfortable bringing it up (we were talking about race issues). I basically said, “if I was really good friends with some black people, would it be ok if I started calling them niggers?” and she looked at me and kind of frowned and said “nigger is NEVER ok, but nigga is great and would be just fine.”
So there is at least one black person who draws a big distinction between nigga and nigger.
And it really is about familiarity and being “in” with the group. I don’t think it happens very often that strange black people just call eachother “nigga” automatically. It’s more of a friendly thing to do.
For what it’s worth, as a gay man, I hear other gay guys refer to each other as fags from time to time. I personally frown on this usage, and if a gay guy ever calls me that in a friendly way, I let them know I don’t like it.
I also don’t like friends calling me asshole, even if they don’t mean any offense and are being oddly affectionate by using that word.
But my point is this happens with all sorts of groups of people no matter what, it’s not just a race thing. It’s about familiarity.
Took time to read the posts over again, in order to understand better.
I kind of understand the cultural part, but not totally. I kind of understand the “life is unfair, get used to it” argument, but not totally. I kind of understand the “it’s all about the context” argument too. I kind of understand the “if you don’t mean it in a bad way, or mean to use it in a derogatory manner it’s not really racist” argument…but that one bothers me too.
I am old enough to remember when white people owned, or thought we owned, the English language, or at least the way we spoke the English language. It was a cultural thing for the most part. We thought it was fair, or even if it wasn’t,…tough cookies, that’s the way it’s done…get used to it.
Blacks were very restricted in the words and even the accent they used around whites. Again, it was mostly a cultural thing. It was upsetting to hear “our” language used by those of another race. Wasn’t racial or mean spirited. Was just the way things were done in so called “polite society”
Even as a kid, I considered the whole thing to be cultural, contextual, life is unfair …bullshit. A coverup for racism.
Isn’t that the same thing you’re doing now?
I don’t see that. My position is egalitarian.
Your position is that other people should let you say what you want without judgment. There’s a little bit of irony there.
It does not appear that you understand how language works if you think it is egalitarian that every word in every context have the same standard for propriety.
If the context is not the same, then the social use rule does not have to be the same. For the same context, it is “egalitarian” to put usage structure around words like “nigger.” It is not “egalitarian” to put the same usage rule around every context.
A mentally challenged individual has a different permission level than I do to use the word “stupid” when referring to a mistake made by another mentally challenged individual. It’s not “egalitarian” to make some sort of universal usage standard for the word. It might be a better choice for neither of us to use the word, but the difference in the degree of impropriety of my use of “stupid” derives appropriately from the difference in context.
I particularly object to your injection of the term “racist.” This is a lazy pejorative that seems to be applied as an inflammatory label for all sorts of things, as if anything related to a difference in “race” can be struck down without further argumentation as long as the idea being advanced might possibly be “racist.” This is…stupid.
The word you are looking for, I think, is “hypocritical.” Is it hypocritical to tacitly approve the use of the word “nigger” by blacks but not approve its use by non-blacks? That question has been addressed by the thread comments above, but trying to apply a label of “racist” to the argument is, for me, a careless smear and not really an effort to understand the difference in usage.
Can’t argue much with that. At least somebody admits it is racism. I overstated when I said it was racism at its worst.
Whites are as free as anyone else to use the word nigger. It’s not illegal to say the word in the US as far as I know. The social consequences of using the word may differ according to who is saying it and to whom but of course, just as you are free to say it, others have the freedom to react to it as they please, within the bounds of the law.
So you have achieved a goal of getting someone to admit that the two usage standards are “racist” but only if we are using “racist” in a technical, non-pejorative sense, cleansed of any negative implication for that particular application of the term “racist.”
Not “racism at its worst,” but racism at its most benign.
This seems to be a Pyrrhic victory which ends up diluting the power of the word “racist” but does not advance any argument that the context-based black-white usage standard difference for “nigger” is inappropriate.
I still don’t get what the OP things should happen, or what harm he has endured. Even if we assume he’s correct in his definition, what outcome does he want? In a just world what would happen? Does the OP get to say the N word? Do we arrest black guys who use the word “nigga”? What?
What does he think should happen if we concede he’s correct?
You’re right. I should not have implied that you were arguing that. My apologies.
Fair enough, but I am not sure how you could even measure such a thing. FWIW, I have never met a Black who DOESN’T differentiate between the two terms.
Is language ever cast in concrete? You seemed to now by claiming I said or implied things I did not. More importantly, your contention that there is no semantic difference is not borne out by the modern evidence we have before us.
There is evidence everywhere around you. Go ask 10 Black people if they differentiate between the two. Look at rappers like Nas (among others) who have explicitly spelled and pronounced nigga and nigger differently.
There is nowhere near the prevalence of code-switching with those groups, and any semantic difference and/or difference in meaning/usage isn’t noted by a difference in accent or pronunciation. Your argument boiled down to, “that’s how Black people say nigger”, which just sent the case today given that the vast majority of us view it as far more nuanced than that.
The reason I called your approach pseudo-scientific is because, without fail, someone makes the same argument about how in AAVE, -er words tend to be truncated (eg. murder, master, nigger, etc.), then they skip decades and decades of history and usage to assume the language, usage, and understanding hasn’t evolved.
Why would you assume I would ever make such a claim? That said, using nigger in a friendly context is astonishingly rare.
First, one is clearly derived from the other. Two, any words where the pronunciation, origin, or usage might be confused with a slur or insult is generally avoided in polite company (eg. niggardly). Third, I am not sure why you assume two different, yet realted words, can not be negatively regarded for different reasons. Four, nigga is generally considered street slang, which like most street slang, is not really accepted in professional settings. Just as you likely wouldn’t use words like fag, cunt, fuck, motherfucker, cocksucker, etc., you wouldn’t use nigga.