# OK, NOW I'm REALLY annoyed with the Anti-vaccination crowd **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704 "2007-09-27T17:50:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/241 "2007-09-30T23:43:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sierra Indigo] Why are we still feeding this troll? [/QUOTE] excellant question. ---
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/242 "2007-09-30T23:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Inner Stickler] Maybe a few, but not in any of the vaccines given to infants and children. [/QUOTE] It’s in the flu shot. Babies and pregnant mothers get it. ---
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/243 "2007-09-30T23:49:36Z")
[QUOTE=LavenderBlue] Stop [lying](http://www.doh.wa.gov/cfh/Immunize/documents/thimersolcontent.pdf). (pdf!) And stop quoting the Geiers. They’re just as [wrong](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/the_geiers_go_dumpsterdiving_y_1.php) as you are. [/QUOTE] Influenza (multi-dose vial)[2] Fluzone (Sanofi-Pasteur) 25 μg/0.5 mL dose LOL, using Orac as a source? The Geiers are experts and Orac has no clue what he’s talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Wombats)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/244 "2007-09-30T23:52:16Z")
**foresam** You’ve periodically decried the evils of the medical profession, health researchers, the CDC and the FDA for some vast conspiracy to “cover-up” some alleged link between autism and mercury. Or simply labeled them malicious or incompetent. So, briefly: Why are the symptoms of autism distinct from the symptoms for mercury poisoning? If a one-year old child came into contact with a quantity of mercury I should expect autism and not symptoms you or I would express were we exposed? If this conspiracy to deny responsibility exists why has research exploring possible links to autism and thimerosal, continued? And finally, how do you know that mercury is bad? In what quantities? Who provided the toxic exposure limits for mercury? What with your willingness to disregard research I’m surprised you’d be willing to rely on the research community in this regard as well. ---
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/245 "2007-09-30T23:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] **foresam** , in case you didn’t notice, the article you posted recommends that children be tested for mercury poisoning before beginning chelation. Why did you just assume that was the cause? Fellow Dopers, I know nothing about chelation other than the bit I read on Wikipedia, and I tend to take what I read there with a grain of salt. Are there any risks to chelation, or is it just a way to throw away money while not getting treatment for a child? [/QUOTE] I checked with a doctor before I started chelating, in fact, two doctors who weren’t lying scoundrels that claim thimerosal doesn’t cause autism. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/246 "2007-09-30T23:54:02Z")
> [@Sierra Indigo](#): > > Why are we still feeding this troll? Because it’s this or homework. And the homework is much less fun to mock. ---
**Author:** ![KathleenSeidel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5daacb/32.png) [@KathleenSeidel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KathleenSeidel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/247 "2007-09-30T23:55:45Z")
[QUOTE=LavenderBlue] And stop quoting the Geiers. They’re just as [wrong](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/the_geiers_go_dumpsterdiving_y_1.php) as you are. [/QUOTE] I’ll say, and [I have, at great length and in exhaustive (and exhausting) detail.](http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/128/) ---
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/248 "2007-09-30T23:57:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sierra Indigo] Why are we still feeding this troll? [/QUOTE] I’m not a troll. I came here to help expose a fraud and hung around because I saw that lots of people here needed an education. ---
**Author:** ![foresam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3bc359/32.png) [@foresam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foresam)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/249 "2007-10-01T00:00:22Z")
[QUOTE=KathleenSeidel] I’ll say, and [I have, at great length and in exhaustive (and exhausting) detail.](http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/128/) [/QUOTE] Kathleen, You forgot to include the details about the Geier’s patients recovering from autism. You only put your “spin” on their altruistic deeds to try to discredit them for helping children. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/250 "2007-10-01T00:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] LOL, using Orac as a source? The Geiers are experts and Orac has no clue what he’s talking about. [/QUOTE] Here’s the backstory on the expert Geiers, from [Slate](http://slate.com/id/2166939/): > [@](#): > > Then there is the activists’ reliance on Dr. Mark Geier, a fixture as an expert witness in vaccine court, where he has testified about 100 times. Geier and his son, David, who holds an undergraduate biology degree, operate under various business names from a house in suburban Maryland. The special masters who run the vaccine court have tossed out their testimony on 10 occasions, and federal district courts have been similarly skeptical. One judge recently described Geier as “intellectually dishonest,” and a special master called him “a professional witness in areas for which he has no training, expertise, and experience.” > > Geier and his son have published several journal articles claiming to show a link between autism and vaccines containing the mercury-based preservative thimerosal. But the papers have been contradicted by study after study, and the mainstream medical community has proclaimed their work on the subject to be bunk. (The Geiers did not respond to e-mail and telephone requests to be interviewed for this article.) > > Despite all the bad publicity, Geier has recently moved into a new arena—by becoming a doctor for autistic children. Geier claims to have treated 120 children in the past 2½ years with a powerful set of drugs he calls the “Lupron protocol.” Lupron, the trade name for lupreolide acetate, is a synthetic hormone most often used to treat prostate cancer or to carry out the chemical castration of sex offenders. It’s prescribed for children only to treat precocious puberty, a rare condition in boys. I don’t know anything about the specific Geier article you cut and pasted the text about. I’ll say that at least it doesn’t, for once, appear to rely on the dubious VAERS data set. I’ll also say that it seems exceedingly odd to have 71 autistic children and only 14 controls (9 of them siblings of the 71 autistic children!) The findings themselves - what I can make out of the text you posted, anyway - are inconsistent with other studies of chelation; see the links under “Clinical Trials” at [Chelation Watch](http://www.chelationwatch.org/) (the Geier’s could also take note of more sound research strategies as mentioned in those studies, including double blind control procedures). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/251 "2007-10-01T00:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] WASHINGTON, DC – A new peer-reviewed scientific/ \>medical case study confirms that many children \>with autistic spectrum disorders (ASDs) suffer \>from mercury poisoning. \> \>The new study, “A Prospective Study of Mercury \>Toxicity Biomarkers in Autistic Spectrum Disorders” \>by Mr. David A. Geier and Dr. Mark R. Geier has \>been published in the most recent issue of the \>Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, \>Part A (volume 70, issue 20, pgs 1723-1730). [/QUOTE] Ah, yes. The Geiers, who’ve been playing with fake peer review and vaccine lawsuits for ages. I wonder if this is just another one of their papers that was[retracted](http://briandeer.com/wakefield/dtp-garth.htm). Read up on the Geiers, they’re a real prize winner. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/252 "2007-10-01T00:08:27Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] I checked with a doctor before I started chelating, in fact, two doctors who weren’t lying scoundrels that claim thimerosal doesn’t cause autism. [/QUOTE] Translation: You searched high and low until you found a couple of quacks that agreed(or pretended to agree) with your own ill-thought-out “diagnosis” and realized they could live off of the chelation treatments they make your poor children suffer through, their income being further bolstered by the other poor souls you’ve somehow deluded. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/253 "2007-10-01T00:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] It’s in the flu shot. Babies and pregnant mothers get it. [/QUOTE] That’s one vaccine out of all vaccines given. As was pointed out to you on the other thread on this subject that was closed [most](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16731574&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) pregnant women are not getting this shot. Why do you keep lying? Oh and the only person who has no idea what he’s talking about is you. > [@](#): > > [The vaccine-autism link goes to court.](http://www.slate.com/id/2166939/pagenum/all/) > > Then there is the activists’ reliance on Dr. Mark Geier, a fixture as an expert witness in vaccine court, where he has testified about 100 times. Geier and his son, David, who holds an undergraduate biology degree, operate under various business names from a house in suburban Maryland. The special masters who run the vaccine court have tossed out their testimony on 10 occasions, and federal district courts have been similarly skeptical. One judge recently described Geier as “intellectually dishonest,” and a special master called him “a professional witness in areas for which he has no training, expertise, and experience.” > > Geier and his son have published several journal articles claiming to show a link between autism and vaccines containing the mercury-based preservative thimerosal. But the papers have been contradicted by study after study, and the mainstream medical community has proclaimed their work on the subject to be bunk. (The Geiers did not respond to e-mail and telephone requests to be interviewed for this article.) I am responding to him because there are people who will believe him. I believe they deserve the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/254 "2007-10-01T00:12:15Z")
[QUOTE=foresam] Conspiracy theories or, in this case, coverups are not advertised by the criminals involved in them. Someone has to expose them. [/QUOTE] Even if there is no criminal or coverup activity except in the minds of cranks and scumbags. > [@](#): > > It’s not intellecftual arrogance to report what I have seen. It would be stupidity to bow down to nitwits who have not witnessed the same thing, therefore refuse to believe it. Spare me. You’ve got a subjective sample of one at most. You are the worst kind of witness. > [@](#): > > I didn’t discard any scientific methods. No, you flushed them down the toilet. > [@](#): > > I simply took advice from respectable scientists who help children instead of poisoning them and lying about it. Meaning you went around desperately trying to find quacks who would tell you what you wanted to hear as opposed to reality. Don’t you think some nation somewhere would support you in its medical literature? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/255 "2007-10-01T00:17:11Z")
[Definitely NOT Moderator Status]I can’t believe I’m saying this but here goes…I hope to ghod you are blowing smoke up our asses about making your kids suffer through multiple and continuing chelation “treatments” because, as much as I hate to put up with trollish behavior, the thought that this is being done to children makes me feel _ill_.[/Definitely NOT Moderator Status] ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/256 "2007-10-01T00:19:40Z")
I’m sorry, **Hentor the Barbarian**. I didn’t see your post before posting the same article. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/257 "2007-10-01T00:24:08Z")
[QUOTE=LavenderBlue] I’m sorry, **Hentor the Barbarian**. I didn’t see your post before posting the same article. :smack: [/QUOTE] That’s okay. It’s such a nice, succinct summary of the Geiers, it can’t hurt to repeat it. BTW, for all, [Autism Watch](http://www.autism-watch.org/) looks like a nice site for education about autism research and an eye toward debunking the crazies. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/258 "2007-10-01T00:52:31Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] [Definitely NOT Moderator Status]I can’t believe I’m saying this but here goes…I hope to ghod you are blowing smoke up our asses about making your kids suffer through multiple and continuing chelation “treatments” because, as much as I hate to put up with trollish behavior, the thought that this is being done to children makes me feel _ill_.[/Definitely NOT Moderator Status] [/QUOTE] I’m with you on this. Especially because this child, according to his father, can’t speak and probably can’t communicate to outsiders in a way that’s understandable. It’s disgraceful that this child is being put through this and doesn’t have the ability to ask for help. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/259 "2007-10-01T01:00:58Z")
[QUOTE=C3] I’m with you on this. Especially because this child, according to his father, can’t speak and probably can’t communicate to outsiders in a way that’s understandable. It’s disgraceful that this child is being put through this and doesn’t have the ability to ask for help. [/QUOTE] What is even worse to me is that treatment is most effective while the child is young. Time is being wasted on a useless treatment while the child is young, so the parent can bask in the glow of “being different” and “puttin’ it to da man”. What will happen to this child when his parents are gone and there is no one to care for him? ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704/260 "2007-10-01T01:02:12Z")
[QUOTE=LavenderBlue] I am responding to him because there are people who will believe him. I believe they deserve the truth. [/QUOTE] The truth has been placed out there several times. The cites have been provided, repeated, replaced, renewed, responded. The poster is ignoring all information to the contrary. The poster is refusing to provide actual cites, instead relying on Youtube videos and blog articles to further their ‘cause’. At this point in time everyone’s going around in circles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-now-im-really-annoyed-with-the-anti-vaccination-crowd/420704.md?page=14)