# Ok, ok. Anti-war folks your claims hold water. But what about this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151 "2003-03-13T19:01:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/61 "2003-03-13T23:33:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monster104 \* > \*\*Where the hell have you been for the last 4-5 years? We had that whole Serbia/Kosovo conflict SPECIFICALLY because of human rights abuses! > > [Here](http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/1999/12/F.RU.991223145838.html) is an article I found that was an interesting read about respecting sovereignty over human rights or not. \*\* Fair enough. Serbia/Kosovo is a good example. And the linked article is indeed interesting. But, that said, do you honestly believe that our motivation for starting this war is out of concern for the Iraqi people? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/62 "2003-03-13T23:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > the “we” involved there was the UN (of course w/US troops) but since the US has promised that ‘we’ will do this w/o the backing of the UN, the question is still unanswered. when was the last time “We” (the US, without the sanction of the UN) did this? The “we” involved there WASN’T the UN. It was NATO, spearheaded by the US. And I quote from the article I posted, “Chapter Seven of the UN Charter says that nations may act collectively against what the charter calls “threats to international peace and security.” **That chapter provides international legal justification for a group of nations to intervene to keep the peace.** ” Therefore, the US would NOT be acting outside the sanction of the UN, and you’d have to be an ignorant fool to believe that Saddam doesn’t present a threat to international peace and security. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/63 "2003-03-14T00:03:18Z")
> [@](#): > > But, that said, do you honestly believe that our motivation for starting this war is out of concern for the Iraqi people? No. I believe our motivation for starting a war against Saddam is not any single, overriding reason, but rather a collection of smaller reasons leading to an unacceptable number of reasons to remove him from power. Humanitarian issues are one reason, economics are another reason, his likely possession of WMD and the threats to peace and security in the region they pose are another reason. The sheer number of reasons to go to war to remove Saddam is in fact THE reason to do it. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/64 "2003-03-14T00:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monster104 \* > \*\*The “we” involved there WASN’T the UN. It was NATO, spearheaded by the US. > > And I quote from the article I posted, “Chapter Seven of the UN Charter says that nations may act collectively against what the charter calls “threats to international peace and security.” **That chapter provides international legal justification for a group of nations to intervene to keep the peace.** ” > Therefore, the US would NOT be acting outside the sanction of the UN, and you’d have to be an ignorant fool to believe that Saddam doesn’t present a threat to international peace and security. \*\* UN vs. NATO, either way, it was with the backing of an organization of nations collectively, vs. the US alone or w/Great Britain. The collective vs. this big guy here and maybe his cousin. RE: your take on the ‘US wouldn’t be acting outside the sanction of the UN’ w/o a resolution to that effect? so, for example, North Korea and Peoples Republic could decide that South Korea was a threat to international peace and security and the UN would be okey dokey with that? Really. (re: the ‘ignorant fool’ gig - I agree Saddam’s a bad guy, one of several. the level of threat to international peace is under serious dispute. He’s got a large neighbor w/long term hostilities to worry about, let alone internal unrest, and of course, the best method to neutralize **any** threat he poses is also under serious dispute). ---
**Author:** ![yme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/35a633/32.png) [@yme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yme)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/65 "2003-03-14T00:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \* > \*\*[sub]Um, **yme** , are you _rapping_?[/sub] \*\* [Hi] Yes, sadly, that is what I’ve lowered myself to do. Just a jab back a Tar -Just the normal BBQ pit thing, but with style. As for _ass dead carcas_, …I …Well… that’s just what came to me. I have no Idea what it means. [/Jack] ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/66 "2003-03-14T00:31:31Z")
I guess “crazy” counts as a style. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/67 "2003-03-14T03:59:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \* > \*\*Here’s a link about the [proposed U.S. battle plan](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/24/eveningnews/main537928.shtml) to hit Baghdad with 600-800 cruise missles in 48 hours. \*\* Even taking into account that you’re on an ego trip that takes anything to support it as gospel. To actually think that the US military discusses it’s top secret military strategy with CBS is so far out in left field it’s in the nose bleed section of the bleachers. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/68 "2003-03-14T04:09:49Z")
Um, CBS didn’t ferret this out of them, the Pentagon held a press conference and announced this. It was on other sites as well. Are you suggesting that all the news organizations made this up? It must be hard being stupid. The world is probably very confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/69 "2003-03-14T04:22:17Z")
Read your own link you ignorant dickhead!! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/70 "2003-03-14T04:26:37Z")
Fair enough. I didn’t notice on the first read through that it was an exclusive CBS report – the other sites I saw the story on must have been quoting this report. Apparently, I am in fact an ignorant dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/71 "2003-03-14T07:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monster104 \* > \*\*Where the hell have you been for the last 4-5 years? We had that whole Serbia/Kosovo conflict SPECIFICALLY because of human rights abuses! > \*\* And when we went into Serbia/Kosovo, we went in with the support of the United Nations and the intent to drag the bad people involved into an International court, to be legally tried. This is a lot different then going into a country without the support of much of anyone in order depose or kill the ruler without trial and to set up a period of occupancy that could last indefinately. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/72 "2003-03-14T11:03:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\*Issues aside … that is _the_ most pathetic thing I’ve ever read anywhere on this board. > > I think I’ve busted a gut laughing. > > Are you serious? \*\* I agree. It made my brain hurt. In fact, **yme** , I’m willing to concede you several points on the political argument if you agree _never, ever, EVER_ to rap or write poetry on this board again. Please. I’m begging here. ---
**Author:** ![S.Mussberger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@S.Mussberger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/S.Mussberger)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/73 "2003-03-14T11:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yme \* > \*\*But before this turns into a pissing match. Does Saddam running a country like that deserve to be put out? No matter what the ulterior motives are, if there even are any? The US wanting a little oil on the side does not bother me. I’m sorry, there’s nothing wrong with benefiting at the same time. \*\* OK, attacking or not attacking aside… What the f… WHAT? Nothing wrong with this? This is the first time I type this on SDMB but, **yme** , you sir is an arsehole, completely lacking in moral fibre and an aspiring thief to boot. Honest, I’ll give you that but man, to me your views suck so bad you’d think I had opened the door to a vacuum when I read that shit. …fucking moron… ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/74 "2003-03-14T11:24:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > And when we went into Serbia/Kosovo, we went in with the support of the United Nations and the intent to drag the bad people involved into an International court, to be legally tried. > > This is a lot different then going into a country without the support of much of anyone in order depose or kill the ruler without trial and to set up a period of occupancy that could last indefinately. The US went no nearer Kosovo than, say, 30,00 feet. Clinton, despite Blair’s ardent wishes, would not commit ground forces under any circumstances. AFAIK, no one “dragged” Mad Milo anywhere. He was given up by the new government under threat (by the US) of cancelling aid. And again, AFAIK, the Serbia / Kosovo operation had nothing to do with the UN, save providing a legal framework (those were the days … ). Peacekeeping after the event, yep. But the operational side was NATO. Aside, from that, it seems to be an accurate post … ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/75 "2003-03-14T13:03:20Z")
What we’ll have, see, is a TV hyper-reality show, where America gets to pick the next Evil Dictator for us to wipe out. Who will win on “Who’s Next, America?!” It’ll be like the _Gong Show_ with blood. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/76 "2003-03-14T15:24:44Z")
I think **mc yme** and his rapping are a greater threat to international peace than Saddam. That was poor, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/77 "2003-03-14T18:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*It’ll be like the _Gong Show_ with blood. \*\* It’s the Unknown Dictator! (Idi Ameen come out with a paper bag over his head) “Ever notice when your ethnically cleansing your political rivals family, and they beg for mercy, what’s up with that?” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/78 "2003-03-14T20:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **What we’ll have, see, is a TV hyper-reality show, where America gets to pick the next Evil Dictator for us to wipe out. Who will win on "Who’s Next, America?!"** The new bumper stickers say “First Iraq, Then France”. After that, time to give the dam’ Russkies what-for for _their_ veto. They don’t know anything about fighting or winning either - we can just march right into the Kremlin in the middle of winter, just like even the French did. That’ll teach 'em. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/79 "2003-03-14T20:37:57Z")
Is the question “Why isn’t the well-being of the Iraqi people a good enough reason to go to war?” I don’t think it’s that simple. We don’t know what the effects of a war on the region will be. Don’t take for granted that a war will necessarily leave them better off than they are now. Suppose the struggle for influence between Kurds and Shiites in postwar Iraq erupts into civil war? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151/80 "2003-03-14T21:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by racekarl \* > \*\ ***wring** the bribe part was not central to the point of my analogy, which was that the US has no obligation to topple everyone that pisses it off, and if it picks someone that will benefit it the most, what’s the big deal. \*\* Well, first of all, **wring** has already pointed out the other issues implicit in your analogy. Second, even if the “central point” you were making was that “the US has no obligation to topple everyone that pisses it off,” you are wrong anyway. You need to change the wording, which should read “the US has no _right_ to topple _anyone_ that pisses it off.” As i’ve pointed out in numerous other threads, the UN charter gives one nation the right to attack another under only two circumstances: 1. self-defence against an attack 2. with UN Security Council approval There is no mention of the right to topple “anyone that pisses you off.” This whole thread is an exercise in futility, because the OP really seems uninterested in anything but his/her own desire to bomb Iraq. **yme** has been involved in just about every Iraq-related thread over the past few weeks, and has been arguing vociferously (if not very coherently) that the reasons given by George Bush for military action are good and correct. Now, suddenly, we get an about-face, in which **yme** concedes that the anti-war people’s arguments are actually valid: the lack of connection between Iraq and 9/11, the lack of a direct threat posed to the US by Iraq; the fact that oil is a big motivation. Yet despite all this, we should go in anyway. Why? Because Saddam Hussein is a bad guy. And when asked whether this is a morally correct thing to do, and whether it might not lead people to ask why the US is ignoring the crimes of so many other despots worldwide, all **yme** and friends can come up with is, “hey, America can’t do it all, you know.” This backhanded argument for unilateralism is all the more offensive because it is so transparent, and because it assumes that the US is motivated by nothing but goodwill and benevolence when it decides to start dropping bombs on specially-selected nations. And, by the way **yme** , there’s an easy way to stop people like **Tar Tarkas** from calling you names - post your thread in GD instead of The Pit. The only problem with that, of course, is that you might actualy have to construct a coherent argument and back it up with evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-ok-anti-war-folks-your-claims-hold-water-but-what-about-this/161151.md?page=3)