# Ok! Okay! WOMYN....instead of WOMAN: Part II **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134 "2003-07-22T13:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/61 "2003-07-23T11:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CanvasShoes \* > \*\*I feel SO not up to date on “current” events. What the DEVIL does WOMYN stand for? > > I gather from the thread here that it’s some sort of feminist group that has changed the spelling of women to womyn, and hijacked it to use for their group. Right? > > Is womyn also an acronym for something? > > (I’m SO confused here :D) \*\* The Y is from gyno. The play upon words arose out of the academic end of feminism (gynocritique), in which text, linguistics, psychology and sociology were investigted, and new paradigms were attempted. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/62 "2003-07-23T12:43:29Z")
The word ‘womyn’ means somebody is a perpetual studenthood. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/63 "2003-07-23T13:00:02Z")
Unlike me, who never perfected the damned art of ‘caffeine before posting.’ ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/64 "2003-07-23T13:07:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orange Skinner \* > \*\*Changing the spelling to womyn is even more ridiculous than turning “manhole” into “personhole.” > \*\* On the other hand, you have “Workman’s Comp”. Which seemed to be the ONLY time the word “Workman” was ever used. That made it stick out in my mind as a particularly egregious example of gender discrimination. Mind you, it was originally intended to make the insurance seem populistic, what with “connecting with the common working man” and all, but when you dont really use a word, it just looks out of place. I’m glad when they replaced it with “worker’s comp.” And I seem to be the only one in my workplace who uses the term “worker-hours” rather than “man-hours”. It just seems out of place as well. But “womyn” is just, well, wrong. Unless everyone starts using it. Then it still won’t be right, but no less right than all the other English words whose spellings dont correspond to their pronunciation. (ay stIl se wi chenj ar spEli©¯ tu fnEtIks.) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/65 "2003-07-23T14:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > When did feminist come to mean “man hating bitch,” anyway? I like men just fine. So do I (believe it or not), and I’m a feminist. Actually, compared to a fairly broad mass of people, I’m rather closer to the looney-granola end of the spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/66 "2003-07-23T16:06:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\*The Y is from gyno. \*\* Really? I always heard, without a cite, that the “y” in “wom **y** n” was an attempt to remove all references to the word “man” from the word “wo **man** ”. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/67 "2003-07-23T17:23:25Z")
These extreme feminists seem to have little grasp of linguistics. What really irks me is the neologism “Herstory”, which results from a misunderstanding of the word “history.” It’s not from “his story”, but from the Greek word “historia”, which means “inquiry” or “exploration”. Those in favour of taking back the work “cunt” also claim it comes from an ancient term of honour in Sanskrit, or Chinese, or what-the-fuck-ever. This is laughed at by most linguists. Of course, I guess the wackos who propogate this crap would probably tell me to shut up, since correctness and refraining from pulling stuff out of one’s ass is a trait of oppressive patriarchal chatel-holding societies. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/68 "2003-07-23T17:29:35Z")
I think cunt is actually an Anglo Saxon word, as was fuck. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/69 "2003-07-23T17:54:20Z")
Heck, all these women want to do is sit around and complain how other people (well, men) are the cause of all their personal problems. No harm done. And the OP tried to fuck that up? That’s just plain rude. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/70 "2003-07-23T18:14:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by InTheField \* > \*\*Q: How many militant feminist womyn does it take to change a lightbulb? > > A: One. And its not funny you pathetic mysogynous bastard! > > I know its an old joke but… \*\* Q. How many Harvard girls does it take to change a light bulb? A. That’s Radcliffe, that’s women, and that’s not funny! ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/71 "2003-07-23T18:38:42Z")
The solution to this (and to so many other of life’s problems) is to revert to Anglo-Saxon and Middle English. We replace man with _were_, the archaic word for man (hence, “werewolf”). We could either pronounce it (wer-eh) or like the word “where.” Woman comes from _wyfman_ – shortened to _wyf_ or “wife.” But wyfman sounds like some REAL Woman comic-book superhero. We could pronounce it as they did in Middle English – (weef) – to avoid the association to “wife.” Or we could just call women, “wos.” While we’re at it, we could get rid of the male/female problem by reverting to the Old French originals – _masle_ and _femelle_. Of course, these words, in Modern French, refer only to animals, so it’s a little like calling men and women “hogs” and “sows,” or “cocks” and “hens.” And I object, further, to the word “boy.” Once it meant “servant,” and before that, “slave.” We used to call all children “girls” (_gerlys_), which strikes me as far more egalitarian. And don’t get me started on rescuing “folk” from its slow death. I suppose resurrecting _wight_ (meaning “people” – or any other sentient being, such as gods, nature spirits, the undead – and today we could add androids, aliens, and that stuff growing in my sink) would be a little dangerous now. Given our civilization’s racist past, we don’t want a homonym of “white” to mean “people.” I guess we could pronounce it as it was pronounced ( **wee** -Klingon-coughing-up-a-hairball- **t** ), but that’s not any easier than “people.” Maybe we could pronounce it (weet)? Anyway, pronounciation aside, once everyone adopts my suggestions, the world will get a lot less confusing for all _wight_, whether _wyf_ or _were_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/72 "2003-07-23T18:44:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I think cunt is actually an Anglo Saxon word, as was fuck. > > Is that right? \*\* “Fuck” is definitely not Anglo-Saxon. It doesn’t show up in English (well, Middle Scots, actually) until the fifteenth century. I don’t know of any recorded uses of “cunt” before the 1300’s, but I wouldn’t completely discount the possibility. (Where’s **Jomo Mojo** when you need him?) ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/73 "2003-07-23T20:51:29Z")
Did anyone make a “grrls will be grrls” comment yet? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/74 "2003-07-23T23:27:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > \*\*“Fuck” is definitely not Anglo-Saxon. It doesn’t show up in English (well, Middle Scots, actually) until the fifteenth century. > > I don’t know of any recorded uses of “cunt” before the 1300’s, but I wouldn’t completely discount the possibility. (Where’s **Jomo Mojo** when you need him?) \*\* You seem to be right about both words. The _Oxford English Dictionary_’s first recorded use of "fuck’ is 1503. The _OED_ gives the following etymology: > [@](#): > > Early mod.E fuck, fuk, answering to a ME. type \*fuken (wk. vb.) not found; ulterior etym. unknown. Synonymous G. ficken cannot be shown to be related. For “cunt,” the earliest example is ca. 1230, and the etymology is as follows: > [@](#): > > ME. cunte, count(e), corresponding to ON. kunta (Norw., Sw. dial. kunta, Da. dial. kunte), OFris., MLG., MDu. kunte:Gmc. \*kuntn wk. fem.; ulterior relations uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/75 "2003-07-23T23:35:20Z")
What about the spam that has come up with such delights as: “ATTN GHEY MENZ!” ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/76 "2003-07-31T13:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > \*\*And how do you feel about the whole debate…You know, changing the spelling of woman/women to wymyn/womyn. Too much? Don’t care? Have at it… \*\* HELL NO! I like having my man inside me! 😃 [sub]late as usual, but hey, it’s my prerogative! :P[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/77 "2003-07-31T13:51:12Z")
Regarding the women-in-research hijack – I worked for awhile as an administrator at a clinical research center, and the discussions around this point were endlessly fascinating. For most studies, the requirement was cut-and-dried: gotta recruit women, gotta recruit diverse races, unless there was a specific reason for not doing so (e.g., studies of sickle-cell anemia were common at this center and recruited almost exclusively from African Americans). But sometimes it got complicated. The one I remember most involved paying people several hundred dollars to swallow a balloon filled with a radioactive isotope. The quantity of isotope was very small and shouldn’t endanger an adult – but the study’s designers were so worried that a pregnant woman would enter the study and endanger the fetus that they excluded all pre-menopausal women from the study. The committee that approved studies rejected this one twice, based on its exclusion of women of childbearing age. I think they finally approved a version of it that allowed women to enter the study if and only if they were either not engaging in heterosexual intercourse or were using two simultaneous methods of birth control. Studies of sex-specific conditions (e.g., testicular cancer, pregnancy) did not of course require a mix of genders. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/78 "2003-07-31T18:53:15Z")
i B m0|+ //33+ +73// u ---
**Author:** ![LauraLittlePony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LauraLittlePony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauraLittlePony)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/79 "2003-07-31T19:18:29Z")
Well, I came upon this quite late, but I think it’s silly to try to respell a word. . . it’s not going to change anything. Don’t they have anything better to do, like work to change actual social issues that are tangibly hurting people? If you spell a word differently, the only different treatment you’re likely to get will be negative. I find the fact that they actually wrote that topic down on a dry erase board funny. . . what, they couldn’t remember what they were discussing? Hee! You’ve been admonished for this already, but I do think the joke wasn’t very tasteful. Not because I agree with spelling the word differently, and not because I’m a bitter feminist, but because you were poking fun at an issue that was obviously important enough to them to hold a discussion. It would have pissed me off, too. I mean, you think the topic is silly, and I think the topic is silly, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t have their own opinions and not get shit for them. The meeting was supposed to be time for them to discuss with like-minded people. I collect toys, and if someone came to a toy meet and started making fun of things, I’d be hurt and angry, and silly as my collection might look to some people. ---
**Author:** ![LauraLittlePony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LauraLittlePony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauraLittlePony)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134/80 "2003-07-31T19:25:19Z")
Well, I came upon this quite late, but I think it’s silly to try to respell a word. . . it’s not going to change anything. Don’t they have anything better to do, like work to change actual social issues that are tangibly hurting people? If you spell a word differently, the only different treatment you’re likely to get will be negative. I find the fact that they actually wrote that topic down on a dry erase board funny. . . what, they couldn’t remember what they were discussing? Hee! You’ve been admonished for this already, but I do think the joke wasn’t very tasteful. Not because I agree with spelling the word differently, and not because I’m a bitter feminist, but because you were poking fun at an issue that was obviously important enough to them to hold a discussion. It would have pissed me off, too. I mean, you think the topic is silly, and I think the topic is silly, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t have their own opinions and not get shit for them. The meeting was supposed to be time for them to discuss with like-minded people. I collect toys, and if someone came to a toy meet and started making fun of things, I’d be hurt and angry, as silly as my collection might look to some people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-okay-womyn-instead-of-woman-part-ii/190134.md?page=5)