# OK, Sec. Rumsfeld: just what ARE the criteria for a "guerrilla" war? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594 "2003-07-01T15:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hazen21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Hazen21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazen21)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/41 "2003-07-02T17:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skopo \* > \*\* > But let’s analyze this more closely. Are the terms “guerrilla” and “terrorist” mutually exclusive? Don’t guerrillas sometimes–often–use terrorist methods in their acts of violence? Is there any real difference in the degree of a unified ideology or organization in a guerrilla group as compared to a terrorist group? It seems to me that the boundaries between these two categories are rather fluid. > > \*\* Actually, in the minds of those who study these things (Terrorism experts), the difference between guerrillas and terrorists is ONLY that terrorists attack civilians, whereas guerrillas attack military targets. Therefore, the attack on the USS Cole was not, as Clinton claimed, a terrorist act, but guerrilla warfare. Any attacks on U.S. military personnel in Iraq, regardless of the source, should be classified as guerrilla warfare. The size of the attacking force, its funding, and its means are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/42 "2003-07-02T17:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*it’s pretty obvious which of the two media has a bigger influence on the American populace. \*\* The _Washington Post_ seems to have a good handle on what’s happening on the ground, among the grunts, in Iraq. See [this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54872-2003Jun30.html?nav=hptop_tb) article, for instance. I dare anyone to read that _Post_ article and _not_ have “quagmire” and “geurrilla war” come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/43 "2003-07-02T19:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*Desmostylus – I’ve played the game on both sides of the ball. How about you,dumbass. \*\* I don’t see what your bisexuality has to do with your knee-jerk, Bush Apologista, Fox News tells me what to think drive-by posting style, but thanks for sharing. BTW, if your are hitting on **Desmostylus** , using “dumbass” as a term of endearment is not going to get you very far. Also, you may want to rethink you rabid loyality to the ultra-right as they tend to take a dim view of your chosen lifestyle. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/44 "2003-07-02T20:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*War is expensive and did you ever wonder what happens to a “small body of men” when they get caught out in the open. They get smaller quick. > . \*\* Maybe that is why most guerrilla tactics are not done out in the open and involve hit and run attacks. And yes indeed war is expensive and guess who pays more in this little scenario? I’ll give you a hint its the side whose home and family lives further away from the action. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/45 "2003-07-03T16:47:21Z")
During the “official” war, when coalition forces first started encountering fedayeen fighters, I noticed an unsettling resemblance with past guerrilla conflicts. The foremost example in my mind was [the Spanish guerrilla war against Bonapartiste troops](http://www-cgsc.army.mil/CSI/research/ComWar/comwarhuber.asp) (during which the term “guerrilla” was coined). I was particularly struck with historical accounts of the Spanish guerrillas’ tactics: > [@](#): > > It was the guerrilla custom to attack supply convoys, foraging parties, and armed columns that patrolled the countryside to collect taxes. The guerrilla bands functioned as a police force in that they inflicted harsh reprisals whenever they could on collaborators in their own locales. This reduced the population somewhat but also greatly reduced all forms of collaboration. Guerrillas also made a point of capturing French couriers. In a word, the guerrillas, relying on mobility and local superiority, denied the French supplies, funds, services, and intelligence in their districts. These tactics reminded me in many ways of the fedayeens’ strategy of targeting supply convoys and other vulnerable links in coalition forces, particularly during the rush to Baghdad. When Baghdad fell so quickly, I was greatly relieved. Although I wasn’t convinced that the jubilation in the streets was solid proof of an warm welcoming of American troops, the initial lack of paramilitary attacks seemed to indicate that things were quieting down. Now it’s clear things haven’t quieted down. And in our current handling of the situation, the analogy to Bonapartiste Spain seems apt: > [@](#): > > French officers publicly declared and personally believed that the French presence in Spain represented superior enlightened views and superior enlightened rule. They saw the Spanish peasant guerrillas as superstitious and therefore backward persons, who could only be controlled by force and who therefore deserved to be. **Meanwhile, the French public was told that Spain as a whole welcomed French rule and that only a few misguided bandits opposed the occupation.** [boldface mine] Hmm. Why does that sound familiar? I have learned that I’m not the only one to notice the resemblance between these guerrilla conflicts. It seems that [Congressman Ike Skelton has also made the comparison](http://www.prolog.net/webnews/wed/cl/Qiraq-us-fighting.RRkA_DuL.html): > [@](#): > > [Duncan Hunter’s] Democratic counterpart, Ike Skelton, even compared the situation to the Napoleonic wars. > > “Without additional planning and general confidence in the way forward I feel we may really end up as Napoleon Bonaparte did in Spain in 1814 and the French military did in Algiers in 1962,” he said. > > Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz was quick to respond that contrary to Spain and Algeria, Iraqi guerrillas do not have the support of the local population. Even if Wolfowitz is right about the Spanish guerrillas having had support of the local population–which might be debated–what he (and Rummy and Dubya et al) refuses to acknowledge is with every new reprisal by American forces against guerrilla attacks, the more likely it is that the local population in Iraq will start to sympathize with the insurgents. In some cities, that already seems to be the case. In other words, the insurgents in Iraq may not have widespread support among the Iraqi populace _yet_, but they may eventually, particularly as the attacks prompt more and more heated reprisals from coalition forces. Bush’s “bring 'em on!” attitude doesn’t instill me with much confidence that things will improve. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/46 "2003-07-03T19:42:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skopo \* > \*\*Even if Wolfowitz is right about the Spanish guerrillas having had support of the local population–which might be debated–what he (and Rummy and Dubya et al) refuses to acknowledge is with every new reprisal by American forces against guerrilla attacks, the more likely it is that the local population in Iraq will start to sympathize with the insurgents. \*\* What Wolfowitz also conveniently ignores is that, whatever information US intelligence might gather on the subject, there is really no way to know how many Iraqis support the guerrilla activities. After all, civilians supporting guerrilla groups against a larger occupying force tend to make a habit of trying to keep their activities secret from the leaders of that force. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/47 "2003-07-03T23:58:47Z")
If you HONESTLY wanted to know what the definition of a guerilla as it relates to todays world,logically,you’d make a list of conflicts chronologically in reverse order and do a study of each. NO,let’s go back to some ancient bullshit between France and Spain. I don’t know whether you’re on an ego trip and have to go to ludricous lengths to be “right” or you’re just stone stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/48 "2003-07-04T00:09:28Z")
Well, you sure told them, **Read\_Neck**. Impressive rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/49 "2003-07-04T00:12:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*If you HONESTLY wanted to know what the definition of a guerilla as it relates to todays world,logically,you’d make a list of conflicts chronologically in reverse order and do a study of each. NO,let’s go back to some ancient bullshit between France and Spain. I don’t know whether you’re on an ego trip and have to go to ludricous lengths to be “right” or you’re just stone stupid. \*\* I’m assuming you did that already and came to the conclusion that this wasn’t a guerilla war based solely on your results, right? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/50 "2003-07-04T01:45:07Z")
Cut him some slack, **Read\_Neck** is probably still sore from looking at love from both sides now. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/51 "2003-07-04T11:36:30Z")
Ummm Yummy,eating your words with your morning coffee. I first read this in the Washington Pravda and was skeptical but after reading off the AP wire. [The ability to deploy crew served weapons](http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-me/2003/jul/04/070403228.html) would meet the criteria for guerrilas. Loose the barnyard chickens. Feel free to sqwauk and flap to high hell. Meanwhile,I’ll throw a handfull of dirt in my coffee to suit my mood. (Goddammit,I can’t even spell a simple word this morning and don’t give a shit.) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/52 "2003-07-04T12:29:55Z")
If I read your post correctly **RN** you admitting that you were wrong. Is this so? If so, kudos to you. That always ups my estimation of someone. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/53 "2003-07-04T12:47:57Z")
Damn and I was ready to respond to an earlier post… But if R\_N is admitting an error good for R\_N ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/54 "2003-07-04T13:01:37Z")
Yeah, it’s hard to jump on someone who refuses to persist in error. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/55 "2003-07-04T13:42:39Z")
But just to get in one more dig at the New York Post piece that R\_N cited: > [@](#): > > Last week, Sen. Joe Biden, one of the key trigger men in the Democratic Party’s circular firing squad, disparaged the progress our troops are making in Iraq. He bought into the cheapest headlines, instead of examining the evidence. > > Sen. Biden, who has been wrong on nearly every foreign-policy issue of our time, made the lunatic suggestion that we should beg Paris for French troops to help us out. > … > Iraq’s our baby, and we have the muscle and the moxie to bring it up right. Compare with yesterday’s [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1617-2003Jul2.html): > [@](#): > > The administration has been struggling to enlist other countries to contribute troops to the Iraqi occupation force and reduce the strain on the U.S. military. Despite vigorous appeals from the president and his senior advisers, however, foreign governments have been reluctant to provide large numbers of troops. While the administration has queried 70 countries about the possibility of contributing forces, 10 have thus far agreed to contribute about 20,000 troops by the end of the summer. Only Britain, Ukraine and Poland have provided substantial assistance so far. > > “Anybody who wants to help, we’ll welcome the help,” Bush said. I’ll leave it to the reader to guess which paper has the facts straight, and which one’s just making up the facts to suit its purposes. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/56 "2003-07-04T16:55:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*Ummm Yummy,eating your words with your morning coffee. I first read this in the Washington Pravda and was skeptical but after reading off the AP wire. [The ability to deploy crew served weapons](http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-me/2003/jul/04/070403228.html) would meet the criteria for guerrilas. Loose the barnyard chickens. Feel free to sqwauk and flap to high hell. Meanwhile,I’ll throw a handfull of dirt in my coffee to suit my mood. (Goddammit,I can’t even spell a simple word this morning and don’t give a shit.) \*\* Apparently you are equally unconcerned about making any sort of logical argument in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/57 "2003-07-07T15:49:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*If you HONESTLY wanted to know what the definition of a guerilla as it relates to todays world,logically,you’d make a list of conflicts chronologically in reverse order and do a study of each. NO,let’s go back to some ancient bullshit between France and Spain. I don’t know whether you’re on an ego trip and have to go to ludricous lengths to be “right” or you’re just stone stupid. \*\* You know, that “ancient bullshit” is where we got the term “guerrilla” from in the first place (though it was hardly the first such paramilitary conflict in history). My reference to the Napoleonic Wars derives from my focus on 19th-century history in my studies, and from a personal fascination with the works of [Goya](http://www.napoleonguide.com/goyaind.htm). In other words, I didn’t go to “ludicrous lengths” in coming up with that example–the Peninsular War naturally came to my nineteenth century biased mind. If your specialty is in 20th-century history, then by all means point out some guerrilla conflicts that fit whatever your and Rumsfeld’s definition of a guerrilla war is–a definition which you have yet to clarify for us, I might add. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/58 "2003-07-16T20:51:56Z")
Resurrecting this thread to note this story: [U.S. General Says Iraq Has Become a Guerrilla War](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=2&u=/nm/iraq_usa_abizaid_dc) > [@](#): > > U.S. troops are facing a classic guerrilla war in Iraq spearheaded by Saddam Hussein loyalists, and American forces need to adapt their tactics to crush this increasingly organized resistance, the head of the U.S. Central Command said on Wednesday. > > This contrasted with an assessment given by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on June 30 that it was not “anything like a guerrilla war or an organized resistance.” > > But Central Command chief Gen. John Abizaid, who commands U.S. forces in Iraq, said a guerrilla war is exactly what U.S. troops are confronting. So it looks like the only person who agrees with Rumsfeld’s assessment of Iraq is, well, Rumsfeld. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/59 "2003-07-17T01:44:47Z")
Gotta agree with you there. Squad level tactics and crew served weapons would definitely fit the bill. That’s why I “ate my words” when mortars started showing up. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/60 "2003-07-17T03:46:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*Gotta agree with you there. Squad level tactics and crew served weapons would definitely fit the bill. That’s why I “ate my words” when mortars started showing up. \*\* You’ve still got me totally confused. Why would your definition of “guerillas” require “crew served weapons?” By your definition the Shining Path fighters, with just AK47s, would not be guerillas. What are they, then? Or do you even have the vaguest idea of what you are talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594.md?page=4)