# OK, Sec. Rumsfeld: just what ARE the criteria for a "guerrilla" war? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594 "2003-07-01T15:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/61 "2003-07-17T11:43:39Z")
Hopefully, that’ll be a lesson to you- discount Rumsfeld’s military assessments. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/62 "2003-07-17T14:10:54Z")
Rumsfeld wouldn’t lie to us would he? > [@](#): > > Abizaid’s remarks were in sharp contrast to those of Rumsfeld, his boss, who insisted from the same lectern 2 1/2 weeks ago that the U.S. military was not involved in a guerrilla war and who said as recently as Sunday on ABC News that the fighting in Iraq did not fit the definition of guerrilla war. > > While Rumsfeld said that he did not have any good evidence that the Iraqi attacks were being coordinated at the regional level, Abizaid said yesterday that there is regional organization and that it is possible that these regional organizations could become connected throughout the country. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2830-2003Jul16.html?nav=hptop\_tb](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2830-2003Jul16.html?nav=hptop_tb) Then again I am sure plenty changed since Sunday. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/63 "2003-07-17T14:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\*You’ve still got me totally confused. Why would your definition of “guerillas” require “crew served weapons?” By your definition the Shining Path fighters, with just AK47s, would not be guerillas. What are they, then? Or do you even have the vaguest idea of what you are talking about? \*\* I base my opinion on two tours in Vietnam with the Marine Corp and 18 months with a private security firm but I think you’ll find it’s pretty close to the standard military definition. Crew Served Weapons would include mortars and belt fed automatic weapons. Their use implies an organized logistical system and technical training. Small arms are low maintenance by design but without proper care these weapons become junkiron. Squad level tactics is also another indicator and would probably include the Shining Path although I haven’t kept up on them. To effectively maneuver a dozen men requires training and discipline not normally found in your homegrown bandit. Unless properly planned and executed the ambusher can become the ambushee very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/64 "2003-07-17T16:38:35Z")
But the Iraqis WERE using “squad level tactics,” if by that you mean “several guys working together to attack and get away more or less successfully” yet you would not accept them as guerrillas until they pulled out a mortar. Why not? Your definition if a guerrilla is, at best, obsolete, basing it as you do on use of belt-fed machine guns and mortars. The need for crew served weapons is reduced when assault rifles and RPGs can be carried by every man in the unit. And, for that matter, what does your time with a security firm have to do with the topic at hand? ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/65 "2003-07-17T19:10:49Z")
Thanks to the Cubans and the Russians, a cushy security job chasing mostly machete wielding bandits off my employers land turned into a fullfledged war. My contract was 18 months and I did not renew it. Now that I’ve qualified myself,it’s your turn. Do you know the difference in firepower between an AK and a 50 cal.? How about the difference between a sniper and an ambush? How about fire discipline? “Squad level tactics” is an exact discipline,not a bunch of guys going out to attack something. Do you know what it takes to actually hit a specific target with a mortar round? I’m sure you do but you’re just kidding with that last post. ---
**Author:** ![panache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c77e96/32.png) [@panache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/66 "2003-07-17T20:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Originally posted by World Eater Nitpick over semantics until the cows come home, it’s becoming a fucking guerilla war. > > great, now gorillas are raping our troops. What next, Rumsfeld? NO, no kids, gotta keep the gorillas away from the **cows**'cause that just ain’t pretty!! (Sorry for the drive-by, I couldn’t restrain myself but promise substance, wit, and analysis next time round!) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/67 "2003-07-17T21:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > **Thanks to the Cubans and the Russians, a cushy security job chasing mostly machete wielding bandits off my employers land turned into a fullfledged war. My contract was 18 months and I did not renew it.** I suspected that was the case. I didn’t think you’d use snoozing in front of the security monitors at a suburban office building as a qualification. 😉 Can’t talk much right now but I found an interesting link, an exerpt from Che Guevara’s famous book on guerrilla warfare: [http://www.che-lives.com/home/guerilla.shtml](http://www.che-lives.com/home/guerilla.shtml) . He liked fifties, too, when he could steal one. Expensive to feed, totally expendable because of their being not real portable, but useful defending a fixed position. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/68 "2003-07-18T03:06:03Z")
(doing a happpy dance of understanding) I get why Read\_Neck and I keep talking past each other! He was trained in the United States military of the late 60s or early 70s. The military does not believe in sending in its men unless they are armed better than their opponents. They insist on having a proper supply chain, absolute air superiority, and overwhelming armor and artillery support. You know, do it right, and as a person who just missed an opportunity to experience that firsthand I can appreciate it. When he thinks of guerillas he thinks of commandos. Fair enough. I was raised in that belief system, with Seversky’s _Victory Through Airpower_ on the same shelf as the family Bible. And I’m sure the guerillas in Iraq would dearly love a few SCUDs, MiGs, and Hind gunships. On the other hand, during that same period I was a “junior revolutionary,” studying the works of Marx and Mao while going to weekly Teenaged Republicans meetings. (I still haven’t convinced myself that it was to “work within the system” rather than “for the chicks.”) When I think of guerillas I think of resistance fighters. (Doesn’t hurt that I used to hang out with a Cuban revolutionary who had a falling out with Fidel. Fun stories of things like blowing up phone lines and getting shot in the butt.) So, I think I’m at a point where I understand (a little) Read\_Neck’s point of view and why his and mine are different, but both equally valid. We are looking through different ends of the same telescope. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/69 "2003-07-18T08:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I dunno. He doesn’t seem like any of our gay guys’ type. Fucking _ew._ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mullets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/aeb1de/32.png) [@John\_Mullets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mullets)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/70 "2003-07-18T10:04:09Z")
Mate, why do you even bother arguing with Read? He’s obviously too dense to understand anything you say to him. Ignore him. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594/71 "2003-07-18T11:17:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mullets \* > \*\*Mate, why do you even bother arguing with Read? He’s obviously too dense to understand anything you say to him. Ignore him. \*\* He _is_ one of the few Dopers (or people in general), I’ve ever seen, who, when presented with contrary evidences said, 'Oh. I guess I was wrong." **RN** _did_ say that he thought it was a guerilla war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-sec-rumsfeld-just-what-are-the-criteria-for-a-guerrilla-war/185594.md?page=3)