# Ok, so the Koran wasn't flushed, but... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853 "2005-06-04T07:05:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jillyvn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Jillyvn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jillyvn)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/1 "2005-06-04T07:05:53Z")
RE: [Salon Article Here](http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/06/03/quran_abuse/index.html) ( you have to view an ad if you don’t have a subscription) The highlights: > [@](#): > > The Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for “a pattern of unacceptable behavior”. > > In other confirmed incidents, water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; a guard’s urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran. > > The findings, released after normal business hours Friday evening, are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in Cuba, that was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report – later retracted – that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo Bay detainee’s Quran down a toilet. So when did “flushing” the Koran become the barometer by which we measure offenses against a religiion while in custody? “Gee golly, we didn’t flush their holy book, but we did kick it and piss on it.” WTF? And why does this news get released on a Friday after hours? Well, so the public doesn’t bother to listen. Just what in the hell is going on in the US? ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/2 "2005-06-04T07:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > …caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet I’m curious, when these people were detained, were they allowed to bring their Qurans with them or something? Me thinks it would be hard to carry books when handcuffed, assuming they were. Or is there something in the Geneva Convention that says you must supply an adequate amount of holy books when detained? I picture a soda machine in the corner that dispenses holy books for $1.25. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/3 "2005-06-04T07:29:18Z")
**PA** : There is a provision in the Geneva conventions that requires POWs to be able to worship freely, but let us not forget as well that the prisoners at Gitmo are “illegal enemy combats,” and thus fall outside the purview of the Geneva Convention. According to Team Bush, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/4 "2005-06-04T08:02:25Z")
I recall reading way back when Gitmo was first set up that prisoners were being supplied with Korans by the government. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/5 "2005-06-04T10:59:10Z")
Let’s see- Bush chastises Newsweek for publishing a story of abuse of the Koran (I know there are other spellings, but this is the one I know). Bad, bad Newsweek. Releasing that story was said to cause riots in the Muslim world. Bad, bad Newsweek. And now the Pentagon admits to peeing on it. Will Bush chastise the Pentagon? Don’t hod your breath. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/6 "2005-06-04T11:25:17Z")
[According to CNN, it was flushed, but by a prisoner.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/04/guantanamo.quran/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/7 "2005-06-04T12:04:12Z")
Y’know this sucks and all, but it’s a book that the US would have likely supplied, so considered holy or not, unless they came there with their own copies, these copies of the Quran were US Government property, with which the Government can do what it pleases. Now if it was personal property that the detainees came IN with, that’s another matter. Still, this is really, really, really, REALLY minor shit. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/8 "2005-06-04T12:11:42Z")
Which is, of course, why the Pentagon lashed out so violently against Newsweek when it happened to mention one such desecration in a recent news blurb. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/9 "2005-06-04T12:23:11Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Y’know this sucks and all, but it’s a book that the US would have likely supplied, so considered holy or not, unless they came there with their own copies, these copies of the Quran were US Government property, with which the Government can do what it pleases. So, you are justifying these acts of desecration? Do you think that will reduce the backlash in Islamic states, or do you just not care if it causes the death of American soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/10 "2005-06-04T12:24:17Z")
By the way, I wonder if anyone else out there has stumbled across [this one](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=18393&c=206), yet: > [@](#): > > \*\*Federal Court Orders Government to Turn Over Videos and Photos Showing Detainee Abuse > > NEW YORK – A federal judge has ordered the Defense Department to turn over dozens of photographs and four movies depicting detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq as part of an ongoing lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union…. > > _Attorneys for the government had argued that turning over visual evidence of abuse would violate the United States’ obligations under the Geneva Conventions_, but the ACLU said that obscuring the faces and identifiable features of the detainees would erase any potential privacy concerns. The court agreed.\*\* Get it? The government argues that holding these men indefinitely without trial or repatriation _isn’t_ a violation of the Geneva Conventions…. …but releasing photos of them being abused _is_. Has this White House gone completely loopy, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/11 "2005-06-04T13:23:06Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Y’know this sucks and all, but it’s a book that the US would have likely supplied, so considered holy or not, unless they came there with their own copies, these copies of the Quran were US Government property, with which the Government can do what it pleases. > Now if it was personal property that the detainees came IN with, that’s another matter. Still, this is really, really, really, REALLY minor shit. Really. Agreed. If these were Bibles, this might likely be a celbration thread. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/12 "2005-06-04T13:32:17Z")
Oh, get stuffed, **Liberal** – can we for once have a thread that isn’t hijacked into yet another one of your it’s-all-about-me “waaah waah waah this Board hates Christians!” pissing contests? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/13 "2005-06-04T13:40:46Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Y’know this sucks and all, but it’s a book that the US would have likely supplied, so considered holy or not, unless they came there with their own copies, these copies of the Quran were US Government property, with which the Government can do what it pleases. > Now if it was personal property that the detainees came IN with, that’s another matter. Still, this is really, really, really, REALLY minor shit. Really. Absolutely incorrect in regards to property. Once something is given as a gift, it is no longer the property of the giver; it is the property of the recipient. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/14 "2005-06-04T13:45:55Z")
What is really a shame is that we are debating if our soldiers, our brothers, sons, fathers and friends did this. They have really lost our trust. Darn shame we even think they would do such a thing. On the plus side, at least none of them are openly gay. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/15 "2005-06-04T13:48:04Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > The government argues that holding these men indefinitely without trial or repatriation _isn’t_ a violation of the Geneva Conventions…. > > …but releasing photos of them being abused _is_. > > Has this White House gone completely loopy, or what? Your cite is about prisoners in Iraq. Has the government argued that the Geneva Conventions don’t apply to them? I was under the impression they’d only done so for the prisoners in Gitmo. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/16 "2005-06-04T14:10:44Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Oh, get stuffed, **Liberal** – can we for once have a thread that isn’t hijacked into yet another one of your it’s-all-about-me “waaah waah waah this Board hates Christians!” pissing contests? > > :rolleyes: Can we have one where you and your fellow hand-wringing screamers do not single out my opinion as an object for pile-on? If you’re concerned about whining over religion, why don’t you ridicule the Muslims who are whining about their book being shat on? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/17 "2005-06-04T14:28:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Agreed. If these were Bibles, this might likely be a celbration thread. Before I join the legion of hand wringing screamers (worst. superteam. ever) I would like a clarification on this statement. Are you saying that the board is anti-bible? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/18 "2005-06-04T14:37:23Z")
Y’all need to stop disassembling. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/19 "2005-06-04T14:41:04Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Before I join the legion of hand wringing screamers (worst. superteam. ever) I would like a clarification on this statement. Are you saying that the board is anti-bible? Well, no, not the board. The board is not anti anything. But I think that there are very certain anti strict Biblical interpretation people and people who ridicule faith that flushing Bibles would be no big deal, and any group protesting flushing Bibles would be seen as just a bunch of crazies. I mean, hell, what do you call ETF’s post to me — hospitable and empathetic? ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853/20 "2005-06-04T14:46:18Z")
I really don’t understand this entire issue. What the hell is so suprising, and why is this such a blow against the Bush administration? Should people step on or otherwise desecrate the Koran? No. Are prison guards often abusive asshole types? Yes. Are people often drawn to the role of prison guard because it allows them to be a stupid, sadistic fuck? Yes. Did anyone remotely near the Bush administration directly cause (please, no bullshit about, “Well, they were given implied direction, because Bush is such an evil asshole, and he hates human rights, etc.”)? Not that I’m aware of. Do we now really expect the administration to be responsible for any abuse of any of thousands of prisoners by a guard on the ground level? I hope to hell not, or any given president will be sitting for about 5 minutes until he is removed from office. ". . . . that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for “a pattern of unacceptable behavior”. Wow, he was fired. Imagine that; sounds like an appropriate remedy for the situation. Perhaps they should have gotten some precogs to stop the crime before it happened. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-the-koran-wasnt-flushed-but/306853.md?page=2)