# Ok, so what the hell happened in Germany in NYE? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538 "2016-01-08T23:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/221 "2016-01-10T15:32:14Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Seriously? You are asked to stepp beyond your doomsaying hobby for once and make an actual suggestion and that is all you can come up with? Not impressed. To be fair to the poster im not sure he has to make a positive suggestion on this subject. If he were against the re-settlement of these refugees in Germany from the start then all he has to do is point out the problematic consequences of the re-settlement. Fixing the problem is now the responsibility of the ones who helped cause the problem. If they fail to do so we will find they themselves will pay the electoral consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/222 "2016-01-10T15:32:20Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I just offered a link to a NYT article. If you think the author is a Nazi, you tell him that. The author of that article is not taking part in this debate. Someone calling the article “excellent” is. Do not hide behind others. Defend your position - that is what a debate is about. BTW: I have not called anyone a Nazi. If I think someone is a Nazi, I’ll say so. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/223 "2016-01-10T15:34:46Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > To be fair to the poster im not sure he has to make a positive suggestion on this subject. . That is correct. I just simply fucking don’t know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/224 "2016-01-10T15:36:11Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > To be fair to the poster im not sure he has to make a positive suggestion on this subject. If he were against the re-settlement of these refugees in Germany from the start then all he has to do is point out the problematic consequences of the re-settlement. Fixing the problem is now the responsibility of the ones who helped cause the problem. If they fail to do so we will find they themselves will pay the electoral consequences. I disagree with you here. If in a debate you claim that someone should be doing (or should have done) something differently, you should be ready to make an argument why you believe that different approach would work. Refusing to do so is - in my humble opinion - a lazy style of debating. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/225 "2016-01-10T15:47:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its somewhat interesting that you think so. Be more interesting to know why, the irrefutable facts that you base this opinion upon. From all the statistics I have seen in the last months, not a single breakdown mentions single women. A small number of families, unaccompanied minors, but mainly young men. This coincides with my personal observations, but that would of course be very random and subjective. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/226 "2016-01-10T15:59:44Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > From all the statistics I have seen in the last months, not a single breakdown mentions single women. A small number of families, unaccompanied minors, but mainly young men. This coincides with my personal observations, but that would of course be very random and subjective. Ah! So, you have statistics! Excellent! Where might we find them? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/227 "2016-01-10T16:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **Ramira** > so you join the extremist Geller watchers because of the act of a single actor in associating a democratic Tunisia with a terrorists acts. I must then associate the UK with the Child abuser. Logical. Again, the term ‘false equivalence’ seems to go over your head. Did you even watch the video I provided in the link? It’s not limited to Tunisia, anywhere where Western tourists have gone has been attacked in recent years by Islamists or people inspired by such. Doesn’t take long to associate such places with such behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/228 "2016-01-10T16:10:47Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > That is correct. I just simply fucking don’t know what to do. Ok, fair enough. That makes two of us. But something \*has \*to be done and you and me will be in charge of electing the politicians in charge of doing it. So we better form an opinion there. I’ll give you my basics. Maybe you find some common ground there: [ol] [li]The refugee and immigrant numbers pouring into Germany are too high right now. Something must be done to reduce them. We can and should allow immigration and we have an obligation to help refugees, but the numbers must come down.[/li][li]Simply closing our borders will not accomplish much. Even if done effectively, it would only push the problem further south. In the end it would be back in Greece and Italy, where it once was. These countries cannot handle that burden. Nothing would be gained.[/li][li]Working with Turkey and the Lebanon to get people in these countries to stay there could be an effective measure and should be intensified. It will never bring the numbers down to zero, but it will bring them down. Every bit helps. It should be explored, whether other countries should be given similar support (e.g. Ethiopia for helping with the refugees from Eritrea).[/li][li]Something will have to be done about Lybia. In its current state it is a prime transit route for migrants from Africa. The Western nations have opted to mostly stay out of the hotbed that Lybia currently is, and with good reason. But it does not seem like simply leaving te place alone will improve matters in the foreseeable future. What exactly \*can \*be done is a topic for a separate debate, I guess.[/li][li]Whatever we do, we will have to accept, that a sizeable number of people will be coming to Europe each year for a long time to come. There is no preventing that. (Unless you were to call for actual violence against refugees. Not an option.) If the above measures prove somewhat effective, that number could be brought down to a level where it becomes manageable for Europe as a whole, if every nation is ready to take in their fair share. [/li][li]Even if most newcomers are perfectly willing to become good citizens of their new home, there will inevitably be a few rotten apples among the bunch. The police need to be better equipped and better prepared to deal with them than they proved to be on NYE. I also support deporting criminal foreigners, whenever that is a viable option. (To an extent - I would not send a pickpocket to a country where he is likely to be tortured or hanged. That would be a peculiar way of defending Western values.)[/li][li]The people who come here to stay need to be integrated into society. We can and should demand their willingness to do so, but at the same time we also have to give them a chance to do it. Ostracizing all of them for the wrongdoings of some will create a situation not unlike what the French have today.[/li][/ol] This would be more or less my “programm”. In the next elections I will be looking for politicians, who sound like they have an idea on how to accomplish this. It will not be easy. Now I would like to know, to what parts of this you can agree, and what you would like to see done differently. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/229 "2016-01-10T16:17:37Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Stern of the Hitler Diaries fraud? This is your source for the French President thinking? Please, it is embarrassing to yourself. As far as I know Stern is a fairly well respected magazine and using 1 bad incident from 30 years ago to discredit them as a source is utterly full of crap. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/230 "2016-01-10T16:37:03Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I think it is an argument indeed for improved verifications, I do not even think it is a great idea for bringing the hundreds of thousands of the Syrians to europe where the integration will be difficult. > > it would be better for the EU to invest heavily in the resettlement and the positive employment programs in the first refuge countries, and the program with the Turkey just launched should be better and less shyly funded. That all sounds reasonable. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I think that I could seat all single “able bodied young women” refugees currently in Germany at my living room table. Strange how the BBC chose to show the ‘refugee journey’ of an unaccompanied attractive young woman in a recent report of theirs if they’re so rare. Trying to manipulate public opinion? Surely not. > [@elucidator](#): > > Ah! So, you have statistics! Excellent! Where might we find them? [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum\_statistics](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics) I haven’t read through the entire report but the relevant section does seem to suggest that the refugees are 70% male. I don’t think it states how many are unaccompanied females. Edited to add: Statistics are from 2014, the make-up might be somewhat different in 2015, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/231 "2016-01-10T16:47:36Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Haha, how funny and connected to the pictures of women in the streets of Tunis… Oh no, not at all. You posted a picture of how tolerant the dress code was in Tunis. You can’t get more tolerant than the beach. And you can’t get any less tolerant of people then by randomly slaughtering them. > [@Ramira](#): > > But what can we expect from someone who reads the racist and hateful professional bigot Pamela Geller and quotes her without being ashamed…? I don’t know who Pamela Geller is. Has she killed anybody or talked about killing anybody? Has she issued any fatwas? That’s where bigotry meets the pavement. And in that respect there is a massive disconnect within the religion of Islam. People are killing in the name of the religion. They do this based on the words and deeds of Mohammad. So if you judge Geller a bigot then how is Mohammad’s lifestyle of slave owner, polygamist, warlord/imperialist to be judged? And by extant, his followers? Why should anyone be surprised when the nuttiest of his followers emulate his behavior. The mere act of punishing people for leaving the religion is the ultimate act bigotry and intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/232 "2016-01-10T16:53:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I think it is an argument indeed for improved verifications, I do not even think it is a great idea for bringing the hundreds of thousands of the Syrians to europe where the integration will be difficult. > > it would be better for the EU to invest heavily in the resettlement and the positive employment programs in the first refuge countries, and the program with the Turkey just launched should be better and less shyly funded. I can unequivocally agree with this. And for the refugees who have already arrived: A safe haven for the time being, shelter, but no expectation to settle permanently. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/233 "2016-01-10T17:21:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As far as I know Stern is a fairly well respected magazine and using 1 bad incident from 30 years ago to discredit them as a source is utterly full of crap. then perhaps I am mistaken, my impression. In which case I find his statement still implausible and not likely accurate about what the magazine reported > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Again, the term ‘false equivalence’ seems to go over your head. No, and so does not the false usage of the phrase. > [@](#): > > It’s not limited to Tunisia, anywhere where Western tourists have gone has been attacked in recent years by Islamists or people inspired by such. Doesn’t take long to associate such places with such behaviors. Nor is it rare for hateful anti-social white men to shoot up schools, but this does not tell me about the average american. > [@Magiver](#): > > You posted a picture of how tolerant the dress code was in Tunis. I showed actual real life against the idiot stereotypes. And you come back with a grossly prejudiced association of the act of a single terrorist. So I guess I must following this logic associate the Americans with the slaughter by drones of innocents and the endless school killings by psychopathic white men… > [@](#): > > I don’t know who Pamela Geller is. I do not think anyone here but the fellow travellers believes this for one moment. I certainly do not. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/234 "2016-01-10T17:25:59Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I can unequivocally agree with this. And for the refugees who have already arrived: A safe haven for the time being, shelter, but no expectation to settle permanently. Why not use permanent residency as an incentive for integration? Do not give anyone carte blanche now, but promise those who will have to stay longer due to the situation in their home country that there will be an evaluation in a few years. If then they can demonstrate that they have integrated well (no criminal record, reasonably good language skills, can support themselves financially … something along these lines), they get to stay. After all, the “right” immigrants are needed in many European countries. The trick is to find them out. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/235 "2016-01-10T17:43:06Z")
> [@](#): > > **Ramira** > Nor is it rare for hateful anti-social white men to shoot up schools, but this does not tell me about the average american. There usually isn’t an ideology linking those shootings up, usually is with situations like in Tunisia. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/236 "2016-01-10T18:17:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > There usually isn’t an ideology linking those shootings up, usually is with situations like in Tunisia. Excuse making. Tunisia does not have the random violence that makes the United States three plus times more violent than any other rich country, and even more violent than most middle income counties. so you can add as well for equal frequency (in fact more frequent than the beach shooting) [the white men associated terror activities](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html) that exceed what the brown people that some posters are so prejudiced against have done It takes deep and blind prejudices to think that there is a relationship between the comment on the ordinary dress observable in a Tunis and a Casablanca to associate it with a terror act (not in Tunis at all, but down south)… Of course a person drawing on a hate-mongerer like Geller it is not a surprise at all. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I can unequivocally agree with this. And for the refugees who have already arrived: A safe haven for the time being, shelter, but no expectation to settle permanently. This illustrates why I would spare the Syrian refugee the heart-break of the mirage of acceptance, if it is possible. What help is it to put people in the Camps and give them the life of the ‘rescue animal’? > [@Hiker](#): > > Why not use permanent residency as an incentive for integration? Do not give anyone carte blanche now, but promise those who will have to stay longer due to the situation in their home country that there will be an evaluation in a few years. If then they can demonstrate that they have integrated well (no criminal record, reasonably good language skills, can support themselves financially … something along these lines), they get to stay. After all, the “right” immigrants are needed in many European countries. The trick is to find them out. Of course the method of keeping people in camps will breed the worst results, but the Syrians could if not for the religious bigotries and the racial hatreds still toxicly flowing through the discourses. the opinion that sees the brown refugee as never going to be productive and a permanent less-human, it posions already the policy The real Syrian refugee has a totally different profile from that of the Harraga. The Syrians fleeing are from a wide section of the population - representing people from a decently educated and trained system who were often even successful and educated -whether laborers or professionals- that tried to hold out during the civil war since 2011, but with the camps small resources in the Turkey, the Jordan, the Lebanon and the exhausting of their savings, what choices does a formerly middle class or a solid working class person have? These are profiles that are unlike the Harraga coming from the Maghreb - the north africa, the sans papiers who are coming either from the slums or rural areas (but usually the slums in the peripheries) who are coming from failed schools and have bad futures for employment. It is a sad thing and at one level it is a criticism of the failed model of the elitist French model of the schooling that is applied, that fails (like in France too for the first) to develop good employment skills and fails at mass integration. But it is also the worst profile to succeed in the Europe and move beyond the petty crime and the lowest levels of the legal employment. The Harraga mixing in the flow is of course rationale for them - the Syrian refugee should get more sympathy and is more valuable than they are. the Syrians could become very valuable injection, but it is likely the policy of the EU will be a mix of the worst instincts. Only some façade actions to let in from pity, but not real attempt to integrate through the apprentice system or understand the potential economic value. Instead the policy will get trapped in the bigotted discourses and the papering over pity actions. better then to pay the neighbors like the Turkey, the Lebanon, the Jordan to integrate or at least create economic centers. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/237 "2016-01-10T18:27:01Z")
Is “harraga” a European Arabic equivalent of the American English term “wetback”? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/238 "2016-01-10T18:32:52Z")
What the hell happened in Germany on NYE? A large group of refugees sexually assaulted swathes of German women who were celebrating the holiday. Of course, this is what happens when you have an open door and let a million unknown people with vast cultural differences into your country. This incident is, at its core, an indictment of the reckless idiocy of Merkel’s “enlightened humanitarianism.” Germany thinks it can undo WW2 and the Holocaust with an open door and pandering political correctness. How utterly foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/239 "2016-01-10T18:41:05Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The Harraga mixing in the flow is of course rationale for them - the Syrian refugee should get more sympathy and is more valuable than they are. Are you saying that one human being is more valuable than another based simply on where they are from? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/240 "2016-01-10T18:41:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Is “harraga” a European Arabic equivalent of the American English term “wetback”? [Harraga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harraga) is the Maghrebi slang for people trying to undertake illegal emmigration. I already linked to it but here again link. The English wikipedia is wrong about the origin of the meaning (it has nothing to do with burning papers), the French wikipedia [gets it right](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harraga). There is nothing in the dialect slang meaning itself that is itself pejorative if that is the question [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=13)