# Ok, so what the hell happened in Germany in NYE? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538 "2016-01-08T23:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/41 "2016-01-09T14:37:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh I’m taking that in to account, you’re downplaying it though. Hundreds of sex assault reports across at least five German cities, but hey Frauleins don’t worry. That’s probably only being done by maybe 1% of the people we just let in the country. We still think there’s a lot of valuable new citizens in there. It’s worth the minor inconvenience of you having to stay hidden on New Year’s Eve. Yes, hundreds. And the number of innocent people saved? Millions. It’s not downplaying what happened to note that, even if every single last one of these guys were new refugees, the results would not indicate it was wrong to accept the refugees in the first place. And I’m not saying that what happened is okay. I’m not saying that we don’t need to get to the bottom of this and stop it. I’m worried about a massive overreaction–the exact massive overreaction that ISIS would want. The one where brown people are treated as subhuman. It’s just wrong to characterize this as telling the women of Germany they have to hide. No one has said anything remotely like that. We’re just saying that this, as bad as it is, does not mean it was wrong to accept the refugees. Because, like it or not, they had it worse than any of these German women. No one is fleeing Germany. The police will get to the bottom of this. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/42 "2016-01-09T14:37:38Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Very true on both points, the first BBC reports I read did mention that the suspects were ‘apparently of Middle Eastern or North African origin’, but then spent the next few paragraphs saying that they weren’t necessarily refugees. \*\*Sure, but they were still immigrants at _some_ point. \*\* > > What do you think happened? Genuine non-snarky question. Yes, this is something I dont understand about this story. I do not see why it’s so important to distinguish between refugees, immigrants and German born Muslims as the culprits of these attacks. Muslim refugees/immigrants produce German born Muslims. \*If \*there is a tendency for such crimes within the Islamic population then such distinctions between refugees and German born Islamic citizens are moot. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/43 "2016-01-09T14:41:31Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is that by and large, even fairly liberal Muslims do not want to genuinely socially integrate into the existing populations, and especially when it comes to social norms and behaviors. On what basis do you say we do “do not want to socially integrate into the existing populations”? What is the data basis of this assertion? To be concrete in contrast I see by objective standards the native-born French muslim population is only barely distinguishable in the social habits from the non-muslim of the same social class - and yet one faces the fierce and documented discrimination from the ‘white French’ - survey after survey documents if you have a “immigrant” name (i.e. not a traditional French catholic one) there is great employment discrimination, the chances of getting interview and hired drop by half. These things are concrete. > [@](#): > > the lack of assimilation makes it both difficult for Muslims to find housing and work, and ferments social unrest. I would say that it is the racialist and the bigoted attitudes, documented in the France at least in the test cases and surveys on hiring, that contribute at least as much as any asserted “lack of assimilation” - indeed it makes the assimilation feel false and a mirage, to be called an immigrant when one is the native born, to see and see documented the sustained employment discrimination… frankly even to the extremely secular and non-practicing like myself finds this discourse about “assimilation” grossly hypocritical. Of course there are the real problems, but the one sided discourse - in the French context I speak of - is nothing more than hypocritical bigotry. > [@](#): > > Lest we be too proud of our own enlightenment, we should recognize the way that Islamic cultures treat women today is little different than the developed world treated all women sixty or seventy years ago, yes that is > [@Tithonus](#): > > That’s true, but 60-70 years is still a fairly long time. no it is not. > [@](#): > > Besides, the gap is growing all the time. complete bullshit. > [@](#): > > Also, as an aside, the silence from prominent rape-culture obsessed feminist writers on this scandal has been positively deafening, particularly since we know from past experience that if this was a plot on Game of Thrones they’d be going apeshit. It is funny to see the anti-feminist angle used in this incident mere days old without many clear facts, the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation for the base politics. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Whose math? I would dispute that 70 years ago women in the West were treated pretty much the way women are treated in the Islamic [Greater] MENA\* today. why do you not say what this standard (or even what this stupid idea of “greater MENA” means)? The objective data comparison of the economics -the work sector [The Maghrebi and Levantine women participation rates in the](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.ZS/countries/TN-MA-DZ-LB-JO?display=graph) [The USA women work force participation, 1950](http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2000/feb/wk3/art03.htm) The 15+ (16 in the usa) of 1950 and the modern Maghrebi, Jordanian and rates are slightly better, the USA of 1950 was ~34%, the lowest, Jordan (the very conservative tribal Jordan) is 42%. The Morocco, best of the selection, is 51% about the same as the [USA in 1980](http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2007/jan/wk2/art03.htm). The problem with these comments is you people imagine that we are all living like the Saudis and the Iranians (or the stereotypes of them). We are not. I can not count the number of times the americans visiting me express astonishment about how many women working in the bank in Tunis or Casablanca and at such management levels - and that people are not wearing the burqa etc. It comes through here as well, this background image quite clearly. Of course just as in every place, there is also the strong difference between the Urban and the Rural (and the recently urbanized rural immigrants and the long time urbans). Of course **Nava** being Mediterranean I agree with, the idea that somehow the urban situation in the Maghreb is far in terms of the issues from where the Italians and the Spanish were in 1980s in the laws and the status is … well if you are not relying on over generalisations it is merely factual. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/44 "2016-01-09T14:47:00Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The biggest problem with Muslim immigrants isn’t that they’re uneducated, or unproductive, or that terrorists may hide within their ranks. It is that by and large, even fairly liberal Muslims do not want to genuinely socially integrate into the existing populations, and especially when it comes to social norms and behaviors. This isn’t unique to Muslims, of course–this is true to some extent for any immigrants from a significantly different culture–but it seems to be particularly ingrained in Muslims, and in particular, the view of the role of women as subservient and/or needing to be protected to an extreme. Andrea Merkel seems to get bashed every time she says this from both sides on the immigration issue, but the lack of assimilation makes it both difficult for Muslims to find housing and work, and ferments social unrest. > > Lest we be too proud of our own enlightenment, we should recognize the way that Islamic cultures treat women today is little different than the developed world treated all women sixty or seventy years ago, and much of that behavior was justified on cultural and religious grounds as well (and still is in some places). We’re expecting immigrants to make that leap of decades instantly, and in their lack of doing so regard their behavior as atavistic. What is needed is a culture shift which still allows Muslims to be respected in their faith but to moderate their social views on the role of women and in other areas, such as the regard of “apostates”, and recognize that “The Prophet’s commandments” about such reflect the mores and conditions of a very different time. > > Modern day Germany, of course, is the same ground where Catholics and various Protestants took turns killing the ever-loving shit out of everybody in sight all in the name of their respective religious and social beliefs, so we can hold out some hope that the Muslim populations of Europe, exposed to modern ideas of liberty, freedom, and egalitarianism may come to the same position, but recall that it took the Christians about three centuries to get to a comfortable stalemate to the point that no one was really calling for anyone else’s head. > > Stranger Basically I agree with you it is cultural. In the U.K. the softly, softly don’t upset the Muslims approach has not worked. Offenders must receive harsh sentences and be deported to their country of origin, details of the offenders must go into a international register so that they can be refused entry into other countries ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/45 "2016-01-09T14:54:30Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > For Christianity, it took several hundred years and five generations-long war , and another three centuries before women were treated as equals Ah, the old excuse “but we used to do it too”. This is totally irrelevant. But I want to emphasize that it is also _illogical_. When we used to do Bad Things, we had no higher authority telling us to stop doing it. Our own goverments gave us the authority to do Bad Things (like keep slaves, or to torture non-Catholics and burn them at the stake.) But the Muslims in Europe today know that there is an ultimate authority called the state goverment.They even chose which authority they want to live under. That’s why they bypass Greece and Hungary and insist on entering Germany–because the official authority there is more to the immigrants’ liking. So simple logic says, “if you choose to force your way into your favorite country, you have to obey the rules of the governing authority when you get there”. Trying to excuse disgusting behaviour by using white guilt and irrelevant examples from history is not just morally wrong–it’s illogical. Good people can debate questions of morality–but not simple logic. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/46 "2016-01-09T14:56:46Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What happened was that as per the Cologne (why can’t you say Køln like everybody else?!) . Because the English borrowed [the French](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne), la langue de Molière plutôt que les langages rudes nordiques. > [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Sure, but they were still immigrants at _some_ point. only if immigrant is to mean the permanent untermenschen underclass. Young men of the north african origin, if of the Moroccan or the Algerian origin, probably of the Riffi and Qabiyle origins, can easily be the 2nd or the 3rd generation. > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Yes, this is something I dont understand about this story. I do not see why it’s so important to distinguish between refugees, immigrants and German born Muslims as the culprits of these attacks. Muslim refugees/immigrants produce German born Muslims. \*If \*there is a tendency for such crimes within the Islamic population then such distinctions between refugees and German born Islamic citizens are moot. Because there is not any reason to suppose “islamic” (Muslim) citizens are the problem contre low-class immigrants or low-class young hoodlums coming from the ghettoes. there is a grand difference between growing up in the country and not as well. in any case there are huge cultural differences between the immigrant who is from the urban background and has those values and those from the **Rif** who have the country values. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/47 "2016-01-09T14:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > ‘I’m Syrian, you have to treat me nicely! Angela Merkel invited me,’ one man reportedly told officer. I mean seriously? You guys all read that and you don’t immediately call bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/48 "2016-01-09T15:00:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The initial desire to coverup or downplay the crimes is reminiscent of the events in Rotherham. Well said ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/49 "2016-01-09T15:01:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Whose math? I would **dispute** that 70 years ago women in the West were treated pretty much the way women are treated in the Islamic [Greater] MENA\* today. If anyone would like back up that assertion, I’d be interested in hearing the argument. Bolding mine to be clear. Submarine races anyone? About a month ago a man and woman where canned for showing a bit of PDA in Islamic [Greater] MENA ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/50 "2016-01-09T15:03:19Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Ah, the old excuse “but we used to do it too”. since he did not excuse anything, completely illogical as a response. > [@T.M](#): > > Well said of course 4-5 days of the confused and unclear reporting is just like years of idiotic cover up… yes it is totally logic to equate the two and not just prejudiced untermenschen linking. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/51 "2016-01-09T15:08:44Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > no it is not. Yes it is. > [@Ramira](#): > > complete bullshit. No it isn’t. > [@Ramira](#): > > It is funny to see the anti-feminist angle used in this incident mere days old without many clear facts, the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation for the base politics. I’ve read this about six times and I’m still no closer to figuring out what the hell it is you’re blathering about. What on Earth does “the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation” mean? What the fuck are “the base politics”? Here’s a thought, if you want to get all sanctimonious about how desperate Muslims are to integrate into Western societies, why don’t you lead by example and try improving your grasp of basic English grammar so the rest of us don’t have to waste our time deciphering your reams of cryptic gibberish? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/52 "2016-01-09T15:17:51Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’ve read this about six times and I’m still no closer to figuring out what the hell it is you’re blathering about. What on Earth does “the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation” mean? What the fuck are “the base politics”? easy - you drag in an attack on the feminism into this issue only days old is gross hypocrisy and nothing more than base politics. > [@](#): > > …why don’t you lead by example and try improving your grasp of basic English grammar so the rest of us don’t have to waste our time deciphering your reams of cryptic gibberish? My integration into some western society has not one thing to do with the English language, although the statement does highlight nicely the prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/53 "2016-01-09T15:21:08Z")
I give up. Good luck, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/54 "2016-01-09T15:23:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Please. > > I’m a woman myself, I take the threat of sexual assault seriously. However, this isn’t a feature of MENA culture - [western society has examples of mass sexual assault as well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal) There were about 7500 rapes/sexual assaults reported in Germany in 2011, before the “migrant crisis”… > This sort of thing is exactly the sort of thing to trigger tribal hatred and outrage at “them” touching “our” women. I would like to think Europe is more civilized than that. \*\*Yes, exactly. \*\* And we see immediately even it is exploited to take swipes at the feminism… ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/55 "2016-01-09T15:24:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, hundreds. And the number of innocent people saved? Millions. It’s not downplaying what happened to note that, even if every single last one of these guys were new refugees, the results would not indicate it was wrong to accept the refugees in the first place. > > And I’m not saying that what happened is okay. I’m not saying that we don’t need to get to the bottom of this and stop it. I’m worried about a massive overreaction–the exact massive overreaction that ISIS would want. The one where brown people are treated as subhuman. > > It’s just wrong to characterize this as telling the women of Germany they have to hide. No one has said anything remotely like that. We’re just saying that this, as bad as it is, does not mean it was wrong to accept the refugees. Is it OK to question the scale of immigration? > [@BigT](#): > > The one where brown people are treated as subhuman You’re the first person to mention the colour of their skin. And that’s assuming they’re all ‘brown’, which many immigrants aren’t. Also what many people are uncomfortable with is the culture and values they are bringing with them. > [@BigT](#): > > Because, like it or not, they had it worse than any of these German women. Wow, I bet the women who were assaulted and raped would be reassured by that, and the men who love them who had to let it happen because they were not in a position to stop it. > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Yes, this is something I dont understand about this story. I do not see why it’s so important to distinguish between refugees, immigrants and German born Muslims as the culprits of these attacks. Muslim refugees/immigrants produce German born Muslims. \*If \*there is a tendency for such crimes within the Islamic population then such distinctions between refugees and German born Islamic citizens are moot. I agree. > [@Ramira](#): > > only if immigrant is to mean the permanent untermenschen underclass. Young men of the north african origin, if of the Moroccan or the Algerian origin, probably of the Riffi and Qabiyle origins, can easily be the 2nd or the 3rd generation. Well its already been reported that a high proportion of suspects were asylum seekers, and if it was carried out by second or third generation immigrants, well they aren’t integrating very well, are they? > [@Frylock](#): > > I mean seriously? You guys all read that and you don’t immediately call bullshit? There are people in this thread who are saying we shouldn’t condemn what happened because they’re from a troubled area. And Merkel _did_ invite them, and unilaterally at that. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/56 "2016-01-09T15:24:55Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > since he did not excuse anything, completely illogical as a response. > of course 4-5 days of the confused and unclear reporting is just like years of idiotic cover up… yes it is totally logic to equate the two and not just **prejudiced untermenschen linking**. (bolding mine) → [Godwin's law - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) (We almost made it to page 2). ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/57 "2016-01-09T15:29:12Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Well its already been reported that a high proportion of suspects were asylum seekers, and if it was carried out by second or third generation immigrants, well they aren’t immigrating very well, are they? Tell me how it is possible to “immigrate very well” as a 3rd generation person… Indeed how is it possible to be a “third generation immigrant” as a natively born person? Since the rape and the sexual assult are hardly things unique to these men, how is it that a certain type here has jumped to the conclusion about the culture broadly or the immigrants broadly over the singular incident where we are not yet sure of any of the facts… > [@](#): > > There are people in this thread who are saying we shouldn’t condemn what happened because they’re from a troubled area. And Merkel _did_ invite them, and unilaterally at that. Who has said the guilty persons should not be condemned? (never mind not condemned becasue of where they come from) I have not noticed one single such post. Maybe I missed it (a single such post) the only argument that I have noticed is not wishing to condemn all the immigrants or all the muslims in Germany over the actions of a band of criminal youth. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/58 "2016-01-09T15:32:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK. How was the plan communicated securely, so that only the trustworthy and reliable found out about it? Really smart people have a hard time doing that, how did a bunch of dumb asses manage it? The more people who are connected to a conspiracy, the more likely it is that someone will tumble, yes? And this one, apparently, involved…hundreds? thousands?..of co-conspirators. > > And no breaches of security? Remarkable, to say the least. Fucking amazing, to put it about right. > > OK, I’m a strange guy with some unpopular opinions, I have that on good authority. But I’m the only person who thinks this just doesn’t add up? Well, not the first time, not the last, either, probably. > > But it _doesn’t_ add up. When something fits so neatly into preconceived notions, slips into place with a _click!_…I get suspicious. [The police in Helsinki](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/12088332/Unprecedented-sex-harassment-in-Helsinki-at-New-Year-Finnish-police-report.html) were tipped off of a similar event. This wasn’t a single event in Germany it happened all over Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/59 "2016-01-09T15:36:56Z")
Men abusing women when drunk at the new year’s happened all over the Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/60 "2016-01-09T15:38:12Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Because the English borrowed [the French](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne), la langue de Molière plutôt que les langages rudes nordiques. > only if immigrant is to mean the permanent untermenschen underclass. Young men of the north african origin, if of the Moroccan or the Algerian origin, probably of the Riffi and Qabiyle origins, can easily be the 2nd or the 3rd generation. > > Because there is not any reason to suppose “islamic” (Muslim) citizens are the problem contre low-class immigrants or low-class young hoodlums coming from the ghettoes. > > there is a grand difference between growing up in the country and not as well. > in any case there are huge cultural differences between the immigrant who is from the urban background and has those values and those from the **Rif** who have the country values. I disagree. There is every reason to believe that both recent immigrants and German born Muslim are the problem here. Both seem to have been represented in those identified as committing the attacks, though recent immigrants are disproportionately over-represented. We have seen in other countries there really is no distinction to be made between the levels of sexual crimes committed by 2nd generation Muslim immigrants and those of recent Muslim immigrants. The crimes committed in Rotherham were committed by 2nd generation immigrants. It’s my contention these crimes are a cultual problem amongst the Muslim population. It is not limited to immigrants, though I wouldn’t dare suggest it was a problem amongst the whole Muslim population in the West, just a worryingly large minority of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=4)