# Ok, so what the hell happened in Germany in NYE? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538 "2016-01-08T23:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/61 "2016-01-09T15:41:39Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The biggest problem with Muslim immigrants isn’t that they’re uneducated, or unproductive, or that terrorists may hide within their ranks. It is that by and large, even fairly liberal Muslims do not want to genuinely socially integrate into the existing populations, and especially when it comes to social norms and behaviors. This isn’t unique to Muslims, of course–this is true to some extent for any immigrants from a significantly different culture–but it seems to be particularly ingrained in Muslims, and in particular, the view of the role of women as subservient and/or needing to be protected to an extreme. Andrea Merkel seems to get bashed every time she says this from both sides on the immigration issue, but the lack of assimilation makes it both difficult for Muslims to find housing and work, and ferments social unrest. > > Lest we be too proud of our own enlightenment, we should recognize the way that Islamic cultures treat women today is little different than the developed world treated all women sixty or seventy years ago, and much of that behavior was justified on cultural and religious grounds as well (and still is in some places). We’re expecting immigrants to make that leap of decades instantly, and in their lack of doing so regard their behavior as atavistic. What is needed is a culture shift which still allows Muslims to be respected in their faith but to moderate their social views on the role of women and in other areas, such as the regard of “apostates”, and recognize that “The Prophet’s commandments” about such reflect the mores and conditions of a very different time. They need to be Muslim lite for you to find them acceptable. If they want change they should be fighting for it in their own countries(which they are not), not coming to the West. I don’t like this idea of anyone from anywhere should be allowed in whether they share our values or not. If they don’t share our values then the only reason they are coming is to be parasites that want all the benefits of Western civilization without any of the responsibilities. These benefits came about _because_ of our values, _because_ of our acceptance of race, gender and religious differences, because their has been tremendous effort and sacrifices made to allow for equal opportunity regardless of one’s gender, race, religion etc. Our values have lead to the greatest elimination of poverty and advancement of technology, medicine, life expectancy the world has ever seen. The benevolence of these values should not be taken advantage of by those who would like to shit on them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/62 "2016-01-09T15:52:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Please. > > I’m a woman myself, I take the threat of sexual assault seriously. However, this isn’t a feature of MENA culture - [western society has examples of mass sexual assault as well](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal) There were about 7500 rapes/sexual assaults reported in Germany in 2011, before the “migrant crisis”. It’s not like Germany women were perfectly safe beforehand and suddenly under threat now. Rape has _always_ been a risk for women everyone, let’s not pretend it’s some “other” group that commits it. Men from all cultures, of all sorts, commit rape and sexual assault. It’s a problem for all societies. > > Absolutely find the perpetrators and participants of this series of crimes and punish them to the full extent of the law. > > However, do NOT tar the vast majority of people from that region who are law-abiding people who can be relied on to behave within the society they have moved to with the sins a small slice of the group. > > This sort of thing is exactly the sort of thing to trigger tribal hatred and outrage at “them” touching “our” women. I would like to think Europe is more civilized than that. There is a vast difference between a culture that treats women as inferior humans and one that treats women as equals. Because bad stuff sometimes happens in the culture that treats women as equals does not mean that that culture should accept the values of a culture that does not. I have no shame whatsoever about my tribal hatred of people with values I find loathsome. Some people feel we should all just love and be accepting of other cultures no matter what for … reasons? If you hold any values strongly then you will be tribal, you will not be 100% tolerant. If you want to accept everything as acceptable, then you really do not have strong values, you just have intellectualized thoughts that amount to no real conviction about anything. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/63 "2016-01-09T15:57:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > \*\*Yes, exactly. \*\* No not exactly. Using Broomstick’s logic there would have been 1000 rapes that night from the German population. > [@Ramira](#): > > And we see immediately even it is exploited to take swipes at the feminism… I literally have no idea what you meant here or why you’re using the word feminism in a sentence. The problem is not European women. The problem is Middle Eastern men. That’s where the blame lies in it’s entirety. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/64 "2016-01-09T16:05:07Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > There is a vast difference between a culture that treats women as inferior humans and one that treats women as equals. the 2nd appears to exist inside the heads by this starndard > [@Magiver](#): > > No not exactly. Using Broomstick’s logic there would have been 1000 rapes that night from the German population. No, not at all, it is hard even to see how this seems like a reasonable straw man to construct > [@](#): > > I literally have no idea what you meant here or why you’re using the word feminism in a sentence. There has already been a post in this thread making a swipe at feminism using this as excuse. > [@](#): > > The problem is not European women. no, it is men, young men hoodlums. The problem is Middle Eastern men. That’s where the blame lies in it’s entirety. [/QUOTE] since a minority are middle eastern so far, this is not even accurate in its prejudicial framing. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/65 "2016-01-09T16:14:09Z")
Many attackers in Cologne seem to have been very recent arrivals, particularly from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia who had travelled to Turkey and from there blended into the endless stream of “refugees” on the Balkan route to Germany. German authorities estimate that approximately 290,000 individuals (that was a figure from September) have entered Germany without ever having been processed in and whose current whereabouts are unknown. That is in addition to the million or so who are believed to have registered as refugees. It’s noteworthy that Cologne, as many other German cities, has a sizable Turkish community. Young Turks often have a rocky relationship with law enforcement, but they were not involved at all on NYE. What happened in Cologne on NYE is unique. Police officers with over 30 years on the force said that had never witnessed anything like it. The amount of aggressiveness, violence and lawlessness was unprecedented. Even a plain clothed female police officer was almost stripped naked. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/66 "2016-01-09T16:16:21Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the 2nd appears to exist inside the heads by this starndard > No, not at all, it is hard even to see how this seems like a reasonable straw man to construct > > There has already been a post in this thread making a swipe at feminism using this as excuse. > no, it is men, young men hoodlums. > > The problem is Middle Eastern men. That’s where the blame lies in it’s entirety. since a minority are middle eastern so far, this is not even accurate in its prejudicial framing. [/QUOTE] The sexual assault upon under age girls in Blackpool, Manchester, Rotherham, Rochdale, Liverpool, Oxford etc. was all carried out by men with Islamic connections ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/67 "2016-01-09T16:19:36Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the 2nd appears to exist inside the heads by this starndard It does not exist inside anyone’s head, it exists in the law. Look at the difference between Shiria and US law. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/68 "2016-01-09T16:22:08Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > What happened in Cologne on NYE is unique. Police officers with over 30 years on the force said that had never witnessed anything like it. The amount of aggressiveness, violence and lawlessness was unprecedented. Even a plain clothed female police officer was almost stripped naked. And I should add: Keep in mind that this Cologne, where football hooliganism and rowdy behavior on carnival (which is coming up, BTW) are common. These police officers have been around the block. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/69 "2016-01-09T16:24:01Z")
Men with Islamic connections??? Oh sacred hand… And there have been series of the organized rapes with men of the white protestant and the American military connections over the years, again and again, [1991](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal), [1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_scandal), [2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_United_States_Air_Force_Academy_sexual_assault_scandal), [2011](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Basic_Training_scandal). I must obviously be afaiad and fearful of any of the white american men who have the military service, they are clearly the animals. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/70 "2016-01-09T16:26:51Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > since a minority are middle eastern so far, this is not even accurate in its prejudicial framing. That’s not true. It’s been stated that the majority of the men involved in the NYE events were ME. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/71 "2016-01-09T16:27:06Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > It does not exist inside anyone’s head, it exists in the law. Look at the difference between Shiria and US law. Please direct me to the actual law books for this first one. and then explain how this defined the culture of the many american organized incidents [1991](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal), [1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_scandal), [2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_United_States_Air_Force_Academy_sexual_assault_scandal), [2011](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Basic_Training_scandal). they must obviously have been of the islamic culture or the American law books would prevent any of these incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/72 "2016-01-09T16:28:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not true. It’s been stated that the majority of the men involved in the NYE events were ME. No, a minority - there are only some few Syrians and Iranians. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/73 "2016-01-09T16:29:07Z")
By the way, a recent report that I have read in the German press might shed a light on how the crowd came about: a police report said it was - a group of about 180 sober young men in sports clothing (as sort of an uniform so they’d see who was one of them) tentatively identified to belong to the _Antänzer_ pickpocket scene - their well-known trick is to distract women by dancing, smiling, then possibly groping a woman while the accomplice pulls her wallet and phone. They apparently seek their prey where people in a festive mood can be found. - the rest of the crowd: drunk young men gathered for a mass celebration (NB that would hardly be people who take Islam seriously) It may be that the first, small, sober group of career petty criminals were the only ones that were up to no good initially, and catalysed the mob behaviour of the drunk mass. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/74 "2016-01-09T16:33:40Z")
thank you mops, can you please provide links, it is useful to get away from the hysterias about the Other and have the real information. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/75 "2016-01-09T16:35:10Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Men with Islamic connections??? Oh sacred hand… > > And there have been series of the organized rapes with men of the white protestant and the American military connections over the years, again and again, [1991](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal), [1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_scandal), [2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_United_States_Air_Force_Academy_sexual_assault_scandal), [2011](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Basic_Training_scandal). I must obviously be afaiad and fearful of any of the white american men who have the military service, they are clearly the animals. Again, the military does not condone unfair treatment of women, Shiria law does. Individuals have to act outside of the military law to treat women discriminately. Since you obviously know nothing about [Sharia law](http://www.clarionproject.org/understanding-islamism/womens-rights-under-sharia) here are some highlights : > [@](#): > > Marital Rights > > Although various opinions exist regarding Islamic marriage laws, the following constants remain: > > A man is entitled to up to four wives, but a woman may only have one husband. In Western societies, a man typically only takes one wife. > > The husband (or his family) pays a “bride price” or “dower” (mahr, which is money or property paid to the bride) which she is entitled to keep. This “mahr” is in exchange for sexual submission (tamkin). Sexual submission is traditionally regarded as unconditional consent for the remainder of the marriage. > > There is no joint property; the man owns all property, (except for what the woman owned before the marriage). > > There is no specific minimum age for marriage, but most agree a woman must have reached puberty. Marriage as young as 12 or 13 is not uncommon in Muslim-majority countries. In Yemen in 2013, there was a highly publicized case of an eight-year-old girl who died of internal injuries suffered on her wedding night. According to Al Jazeera, “Nearly 14 percent of Yemeni girls [are] married before the age of 15 and 52 percent before the age of 18.” Sorry, I’m just not seeing the equivalence where marital rape of minors is an OK thing. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/76 "2016-01-09T16:41:33Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > By the way, a recent report that I have read in the German press might shed a light on how the crowd came about: a police report said it was > > - a group of about 180 sober young men in sports clothing (as sort of an uniform so they’d see who was one of them) tentatively identified to belong to the _Antänzer_ pickpocket scene - their well-known trick is to distract women by dancing, smiling, then possibly groping a woman while the accomplice pulls her wallet and phone. They apparently seek their prey where people in a festive mood can be found. > > - the rest of the crowd: drunk young men gathered for a mass celebration (NB that would hardly be people who take Islam seriously) > > It may be that the first, small, sober group of career petty criminals were the only ones that were up to no good initially, and catalysed the mob behaviour of the drunk mass. That was the initial suspicion. The _Antänzer_ (young North Africans) have been haunting Cologne for years, but not on the place right in front of Cologne main station, certainly not inside main station and under the eyes of police (although they are highly aggressive and police usually only approach them with strong backup) The fact that Muslims really shouldn’t consume alcohol offers little consolation for the victims. The 9/11 attackers also went to strip club and bars. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/77 "2016-01-09T16:49:23Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Please direct me to the actual law books for this first one. > > and then explain how this defined the culture of the many american organized incidents [1991](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal), [1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_scandal), [2003](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_United_States_Air_Force_Academy_sexual_assault_scandal), [2011](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_Basic_Training_scandal). > > they must obviously have been of the islamic culture or the American law books would prevent any of these incidents. You really think pointing out random events, going back 25 years, somehow takes the edge of the events on New Year’s Eve? At least half a dozen cities, hundreds of complaints. The fact is this seems to have been a pretty wide phenomena involving a lot of asylum seekers. It’s noteworthy. It’s not going to be swept away with cries of “quit being racist”. And you know what? When those things happen in military academies and bases, there IS a lot of inspection and focus of the boys club mentality of the military, but you don’t want a similar reflection here. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/78 "2016-01-09T16:50:11Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Again, the military does not condone unfair treatment of women, and yes the **culture** keeps replciating this, over the decades… so you compared culture to culture and made a broad assertion… Now it is the bait and switch, > [@](#): > > Shiria law does. This is like writing that the Christian law “does” - there is not one single idea of what is precisely the Sharia and not a single body of intepretation and law > [@](#): > > Since you obviously know nothing about [Sharia law](http://www.clarionproject.org/understanding-islamism/womens-rights-under-sharia) I do not need an American project set up in 2006 after you have gotten into anti-islamic fits to tell me about the Islamic religion or the varieties of the Islamic tradition - or any need to respond to the over simplifications and half-truths it presents (like the idea of the bride price which is a tradition (urf) and not an injuction, and of course ignoring the women unlike under traditional christian european law keeping all her property under her own title and control, not passing to the husband at all - or the silly comparison of marriage ages that is not different from the christian “law” tradition at all and although this is not applicable in the civil codes that aply to the region). It is sufficient you make sweeping statement about innate culture differences and hand-wave away a reality of continued abuse of women, even institutionalized and repeated decade after decade… it is the classic pattern of the person who refuses to accept the members of a particular group, racial or religious. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/79 "2016-01-09T16:52:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You really think pointing out random events Random, it is showing the repetition of the institutionalised abuse of women - repeated over decades - in a highly controlled and highly structured western cultural environment. > [@](#): > > somehow takes the edge of the events on New Year’s Eve? Take the edge off? No I highlight the gross hypocrisy of the claims here of an exclusive cultural problem when I see a MAN problem, which certain MEN here want to other to the other men not them, because ‘their’ women were attacked. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/80 "2016-01-09T16:57:29Z")
Yeah we’re all okay with military rapes. Good point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=5)