# Ok, so what the hell happened in Germany in NYE? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538 "2016-01-08T23:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/81 "2016-01-09T17:00:46Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > and yes the **culture** keeps replciating this, over the decades… so you compared culture to culture and made a broad assertion… > > Now it is the bait and switch, > This is like writing that the Christian law “does” - there is not one single idea of what is precisely the Sharia and not a single body of intepretation and law > > I do not need an American project set up in 2006 after you have gotten into anti-islamic fits to tell me about the Islamic religion or the varieties of the Islamic tradition - or any need to respond to the over simplifications and half-truths it presents (like the idea of the bride price which is a tradition (urf) and not an injuction, and of course ignoring the women unlike under traditional christian european law keeping all her property under her own title and control, not passing to the husband at all - or the silly comparison of marriage ages that is not different from the christian “law” tradition at all and although this is not applicable in the civil codes that aply to the region). > > It is sufficient you make sweeping statement about innate culture differences and hand-wave away a reality of continued abuse of women, even institutionalized and repeated decade after decade… it is the classic pattern of the person who refuses to accept the members of a particular group, racial or religious. You have no cites refuting the truth of anything I say. I am against a culture with values represented in Sharia law, you want to label me as ignorant and anti-Islamic go right on ahead. You can cure my ignorance with reliable cites; but of course that is oh so much trouble and effort to do. Culture has many aspects and subtleties I agree, which is why I use the legal code to base my opinions on; the legal code being the most solid, enforceable, and tangible aspect of any culture. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/82 "2016-01-09T17:00:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because, like it or not, they had it worse than any of these German women. I’m sorry, but did you actually say that people voluntarily leaving their home country had it WORSE than a woman who was raped?? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/83 "2016-01-09T17:03:27Z")
I do not understand this response. There is no statement about okay about military rapes. but there is the demonstration that the supposed unique cultural problem as some have asserted directly or hinted indirectly is a false one and Broomstick is right. the repetition of an organized use of rape and suggestion of rape in the american military repeated again and again over many decades demonstates the hyprocrisy of the cultural claims (and these are used because the full documentation is easily found and cited) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/84 "2016-01-09T17:08:29Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > You have no cites refuting the truth of anything I say. How can a non thing be cited? > [@](#): > > I am against a culture with values represented in Sharia law , this is again like saying “I am against a culture with values represented in the Christian law.” This later statement is a stupid, ignorant and is generally a bigoted one that makes no sense since the christian practices and even the interpretations vary greatly. > [@](#): > > Culture has many aspects and subtleties I agree, which is why I use the legal code to base my opinions on; the legal code being the most solid, enforceable, and tangible aspect of any culture. And we can see easily it demonstrates nothing very much otherwise the repeated organized use of rape - abuse organized and applied in different instances each repated over many occasions and year - in your military would not have occured at all. You make a claim of some fundamental cultural driver difference, and use law as a proof, but we easily see in one of the most controlled of your country and culture’s environements, there is repeated abuse of women, organized abuse - and incidents repated over decades again and again. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/85 "2016-01-09T17:15:29Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I do not understand this response. There is no statement about okay about military rapes. > > but there is the demonstration that the supposed unique cultural problem as some have asserted directly or hinted indirectly is a false one and Broomstick is right. Well, I don’t think it’s unique. The military definitely has misogyny and patriarchal problems. So? This isn’t a thread about that. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/86 "2016-01-09T17:19:39Z")
No it is a thread about incidents at the New Years in Cologne, but then you have not objected to people trying to make this about all of the islamic culture or arab or “middle eastern” either. If it is about only the young hoodlums - very possibly immigrant and faux asylum seekers pretending to be the Syrian refugees - then super, we can talk about these specific persons. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/87 "2016-01-09T17:27:56Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Yes it is. > > No it isn’t. > > I’ve read this about six times and I’m still no closer to figuring out what the hell it is you’re blathering about. What on Earth does “the gross hypocrisy of instrumentalisation” mean? What the fuck are “the base politics”? > > Here’s a thought, if you want to get all sanctimonious about how desperate Muslims are to integrate into Western societies, why don’t you lead by example and try improving your grasp of basic English grammar so the rest of us don’t have to waste our time deciphering your reams of cryptic gibberish? She’s from France and her English is vastly better than my French. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/88 "2016-01-09T17:28:03Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > How can a non thing be cited? > > , > this is again like saying “I am against a culture with values represented in the Christian law.” This later statement is a stupid, ignorant and is generally a bigoted one that makes no sense since the christian practices and even the interpretations vary greatly. > And we can see easily it demonstrates nothing very much otherwise the repeated organized use of rape - abuse organized and applied in different instances each repated over many occasions and year - in your military would not have occured at all. > > You make a claim of some fundamental cultural driver difference, and use law as a proof, but we easily see in one of the most controlled of your country and culture’s environements, there is repeated abuse of women, organized abuse - and incidents repated over decades again and again. Unfair abuse and treatment of anyone -women, men gays, minorities etc. is bad. Such unfairness codified into law is worse. I believe Western culture, having the laws it does is far more along in fair treatment of all people than Islamic culture. Your conflation of Western culture with Christianity is just silly; for one thing Sharia law demands that one become Muslim in order to have full rights, for the most part the US has had separation of church and state and has no religious requirement for equal treatment period. I think we’re just talking past one another, and I’m not finding myself becoming more enlightened or less ignorant by being called bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/89 "2016-01-09T17:30:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > She’s from France and her English is vastly better than my French. Her English is vastly better than my French, too. That’s why I don’t post on French language message boards. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/90 "2016-01-09T17:40:36Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Such unfairness codified into law is worse. Then one must quote law codes and not the uncodified relgious precepts. to not be a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group one compares like things to like, not apples to potatoes. > [@](#): > > I believe Western culture, having the laws it does is far more along in fair treatment of all people than Islamic culture. > [@](#): > > Your conflation of Western culture with Christianity is just silly; no it is not silly. I do no such thing, I draw the comparison to highlight the ignorance and to compare\*\* like to like.\*\* It is the ignorant confusion of the idea of ‘sharia law’ (which is not one body of interpretation and not one body of code, in fact it is not legal code outside of the Saudi example) with the idea of law codes, the actual written law codes enforced by the actual courts. You are clearly under the confused idea that 1. there is one single thing called sharia law 2. that this thing is the law of the land of the islamic world Neither is true. > [@](#): > > for one thing Sharia law demands that one become Muslim in order to have full rights, Excellent assertion, what does this have to do the \*\*Law Codes \*\*of the region? > [@](#): > > for the most part the US has had separation of church and state and has no religious requirement for equal treatment period. And this observation has what relevance to the Syrian or the Moroccan immigrant, whose law codes are based (since almost 100 years now) on the French Code Civil with some tweakings on the family code to have alignments with religious family law precepts (according to the religion)? (or what relevance to the \*\*\*European \*\*\*situation which in many many cases has not the American separation of the church and the state) Or do we see again the gross ignorance and confusion ??? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/91 "2016-01-09T17:44:14Z")
Ok. You win. I am so ignorant. Muslim culture has nothing to do with Sharia law, they love the gays, women have it great, there is really no difference in how their culture treats non-muslims. I am sorry to have tainted your day with my bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/92 "2016-01-09T17:50:43Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > We are talking about a force of about 1000 young men (I repeat: one thousand) men that entered a comparatively tiny place in the center of Cologne on the busiest night of the year, which is not a trivial thing to organize in itself. For those of you who don’t know Cologne, Cologne main station is only a couple of yards away from Cologne Cathedral, one of the largest and most impressive Christian churches in Europe, it is traditionally the place were young and old welcome the new year and where they would have felt safe. This was an orchestrated and highly symbolic demonstration of power and humiliation of the local population (and all the others who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time). The sheer magnitude of what happened is breathtaking. > > [Cologne sexual assaults: Leaked police report reveals 'chaos beyond description' as women attacked | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-sexual-assaults-leaked-police-report-reveals-chaos-beyond-description-as-women-attacked-and-a6802026.html) > > [http://news.sky.com/story/1618820/cologne-police-chief-removed-over-assaults](http://news.sky.com/story/1618820/cologne-police-chief-removed-over-assaults) The fact that the men were “heavily intoxicated” suggests they’re not terribly devout Muslims. More like drunk, young punks, most of whom were probably virgins and sexual frustration, drunkeness and groups of angry, young men is a bad combination. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/93 "2016-01-09T18:04:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The fact that the men were “heavily intoxicated” suggests they’re not terribly devout Muslims. > > More like drunk, young punks, most of whom were probably virgins and sexual frustration, drunkeness and groups of angry, young men is a bad combination. **All** witnesses and all police reports agree **100 %** that the attackers were **exclusively** of North African or Middle Eastern origin. You can rest assured that if any suspect looked like Hans or Franz or Ivan or Boris, this would have been reported to the public by the police and by politicians with great relief. As I wrote earlier, there now are signs that these people were in fact mainly what are called “pseudo-Syrians”, i. e. individuals from Morocco who pretended to be Syrian (or Iraqi) refugees, see for instance this article (in German): > **[Die Täter von Köln: Verdacht fällt auf Pseudo-Syrer aus Marokko](https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/kriminalitaet/id_76590692/die-taeter-von-koeln-verdacht-faellt-auf-pseudo-syrer-aus-marokko.html)** > > Die Angelegenheit ist heikel: Bei den Silvester-Ausschreitungen in Köln sollen vor allem Syrer beteiligt gewesen sein. Das könnte ein böser Irrtum zu Lasten der Kriegsflüchtlinge sein. Denn dahinter steckt vermutlich ein Netzwerk nordafrikanischer... ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/94 "2016-01-09T18:07:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The fact that the men were “heavily intoxicated” suggests they’re not terribly devout Muslims. > > More like drunk, young punks, most of whom were probably virgins and sexual frustration, drunkeness and groups of angry, young men is a bad combination. And the virigin part (i. e. the North Africans being virgins) is quite possibly true, according to the article. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/95 "2016-01-09T18:07:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The fact that the men were “heavily intoxicated” suggests they’re not terribly devout Muslims… Thank Allah. There for a moment I was worried. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/96 "2016-01-09T18:08:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > drunkeness and groups of angry, young men is a bad combination. Has there been a reliable breakdown on the makeup of the refugees? I recall one statistic that said its about 80% young men, if so this is a problem in itself leaving aside any other issues about relgion or culture. I recall reading about a mining town in South Africa which set up areas for miners to live in, as the workers were almost entirely young men these areas were also almost entirely full of young men. The police and authorities had problems keeping a lid on them due to the horrendous crime rate, violent and otherwise, no solution seemed to work until someone had the bright idea to let the families of the workers live with them. The crime rate plummeted basically overnight. The same thing might occur (have already occurred?) with the current immigration policies and it would be a good idea for this and other reasons why European countries should be more selective who they let in. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/97 "2016-01-09T18:08:45Z")
So because in the past ten years some parts of the Western culture (i.e. in some of the younger population ) has come to accept gays, it is suddenly another point to attack the Muslims over? It is again a hypocrisy. The fact you make sweeping assertions but did not know in fact know what the actual legal codes are makes my point it is not that the cultures from the region being perfect, it is the exagerated and confused ideas about them. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/98 "2016-01-09T18:23:49Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > **All** witnesses and all police reports agree **100 %** that the attackers were **exclusively** of North African or Middle Eastern origin. very nice, however much of the northern part of the Morocco where many immigrants come from do not look any different from Spanish or southern French, as you can see of the wife of the King of Morocco, [Lalla Salma](https://www.google.com/search?q=Princess+Lalla+Salma+of+Morocco&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixg9i2rJ3KAhXETBQKHedTAc8Q_AUIBygB&biw=1600&bih=741#tbm=isch&q=Princesse+Lalla+Salma+maroc) - who is from a ‘pure’ Moroccan family and has a typical Riffi look. but I do not doubt in fact the crowd was dominated by [Harraga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harraga). > [@](#): > > As I wrote earlier, there now are signs that these people were in fact mainly what are called “pseudo-Syrians”, i. e. individuals from Morocco who pretended to be Syrian (or Iraqi) refugees, see for instance this article (in German): > > [Die Täter von Köln: Verdacht fällt auf Pseudo-Syrer aus Marokko](http://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/panorama/kriminalitaet/id_76590692/die-taeter-von-koeln-verdacht-faellt-auf-pseudo-syrer-aus-marokko.html) I think it makes sense these were low class idiots from the country side -the typical profile of the Hraga. They should be imprisoned and then deported. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/99 "2016-01-09T18:30:11Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Thank Allah. > > There for a moment I was worried. Thank christ. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/100 "2016-01-09T18:33:59Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it is not that the cultures from the region being perfect, it is the exagerated and confused ideas about them. > [@Ramira](#): > > I think it makes sense these were low class idiots from the country side -the typical profile of the Hraga. This cracks me up! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=6)