# Ok, so what the hell happened in Germany in NYE? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538 "2016-01-08T23:28:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/121 "2016-01-09T20:04:29Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Unfair abuse and treatment of anyone -women, men gays, minorities etc. is bad. Such unfairness codified into law is worse. I believe Western culture, having the laws it does is far more along in fair treatment of all people than Islamic culture. Your conflation of Western culture with Christianity is just silly; for one thing Sharia law demands that one become Muslim in order to have full rights, for the most part the US has had separation of church and state and has no religious requirement for equal treatment period. Not all Muslim-majority nations have enshrined Sharia law, there are secular Muslim states: Albania, Turkey, and others Not all Western nations are secular in the sense of separation of church and state, which was seen as a very strange novelty when the US did it. Argentina and and Costa Rica are officially Roman Catholic (so is the Vatican, that’s sort of a _duh!_ statement). Peru, Poland, and Spain have constitutional features favoring Catholicism. Greece and Georgia are officially Eastern Orthodox. English is officially Anglican. Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Norway, and Sweden are all officially Lutheran. In other words, most places aren’t America - and given how American society at large currently views the non-Christian elements of the population (how many atheists elected to Congress? I think there’s one Muslim in Congress) the nation _de facto_ favors Christianity in many aspects of social and political life. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/122 "2016-01-09T20:06:31Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Let me tell you one thing. What happened one week ago is Germany’s 9/11. No deaths, but the psychological impact. I am no spring chicken any more and I haven’t experienced anything like this in my lifetime and almost everyone I have talked to in the last few days agrees, including people who lived through WWII. This is no joke. If I were a policy planner in Washington and contemplating about Europe’s future in, say, 10, 20 or 30 years, I would be scared shitless. > > Mark my words. Interesting point. So France has had two 9/11s recently. Germany just had theirs. If a few other European countries have their own 9/11s before long (seems fairly probable IMO at this point) things could get really “interesting”. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/123 "2016-01-09T20:07:56Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > This is one of those stories where it’s fascinating to look at discussions all over the political spectrum to see how differently it’s handled. So far I see cognitive dissonance, circular firing squad levels of infighting, and Ramira-style defense on the lefty sites and congratulations and back patting on the right (can’t stump the Trump). The right has a sort of “what did you expect?” attitude along with a hope this will finally lead to a liberal backlash. It’s almost like some European authorities are going out of their way to make the populace more nationalistic and right wing, though I’m sure Hanlon’s razor works here. > > Speaking of the right, where are the groups of right wingers on the ground? You know, to protect “their” women. They always talk a big game on the internet, but they don’t do crap. If this isn’t a one off incident, maybe street fighting is in the future if the police can’t or won’t do anything. Could lead to some fun Live Leak videos. The right are patient. Why move when popular discontent isn’t strong enough to seize real power electorally? Let the problem grow and then when there is support from the populace and law enforcement act. A street battle now would result in potential backlash against the right. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/124 "2016-01-09T20:09:29Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Let me tell you one thing. What happened one week ago is Germany’s 9/11. No deaths, but the psychological impact. I am no spring chicken any more and I haven’t experienced anything like this in my lifetime and almost everyone I have talked to in the last few days agrees, including people who lived through WWII. This is no joke. If I were a policy planner in Washington and contemplating about Europe’s future in, say, 10, 20 or 30 years, I would be scared shitless. > > Mark my words. Thankfully nothing we read on this thread or in the media will minimize what happened in Germany last week. There is a natural ebb and flow to these issues; and the flow is now towards a more reactionary policy in Germany on the issue of immigration. No amount of debate(or cultural navelgazing) on here will now change that. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/125 "2016-01-09T20:11:43Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > But how often has a group of several thousand Spanish men committed rape in Germany? I am as dismayed as anyone by the initial reports of police and press that downplayed the events of New Year’s Eve - but you are doing just the opposite. The last time a group of several thousand men committed rape in Germany was probably during the Thirty Years War, if at all. In Cologne according to latest reports \*two \*rapes were committed. Estimates are that one, not “several”, thousand men of North African or Middle Eastern origin _were present_ at Cologne central station. I have not read any reports stating that all of them took part in the assaults. The events as they happened were bad enough. No need to blow them out of proportion. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/126 "2016-01-09T20:14:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The right are patient. Why move when popular discontent isn’t strong enough to seize real power electorally? Let the problem grow and then when there is support from the populace and law enforcement act. > > A street battle now would result in potential backlash against the right. Yep - in Germany this has worked for the right once before: Wait until you get elected, then act. That was in 1933. Let’s hope people remember what came next. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/127 "2016-01-09T20:15:21Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Let me tell you one thing. What happened one week ago is Germany’s 9/11. No deaths, but the psychological impact. Know what the difference between death and sexual assault is? You can recover and have a life after sexual assault. Sorry, no - that is NOT “Germany’s 9/11”. It’s not the equivalent of November 13 in Paris, or Charlie Hebdo, or the Madrid train bombings on March 11, 2004 or the Bali Bombings, or 7/7 in London. Yes, it was horrible, especially for the women raped, but no one died. No buildings fell down. The equation of rape with death is just another way that society treats women as disposable (to be fair, generally society is even worse towards men who are raped). > [@](#): > > I am no spring chicken any more and I haven’t experienced anything like this in my lifetime and almost everyone I have talked to in the last few days agrees, including people who lived through WWII. This is no joke. Seriously? They’re comparing it to a war that killed 50 million people? That’s a new form of hyperbole. > [@](#): > > If I were a policy planner in Washington and contemplating about Europe’s future in, say, 10, 20 or 30 years, I would be scared shitless. Go ahead, hide under your bed. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/128 "2016-01-09T20:25:45Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Scared of what exactly? What do you think is going to happen? Without wanting to going into this extremely controversial discussion in detail: the ethnic makeup of Germany (and other European countries) will change dramatically. The power of the German economy will weaken as the productive part of the population ages while an ever increasing part of the population will be living off and demanding welfare. Germany today, at the beginning of 2016, is a deeply divided country. About ⅓ agrees with Merkel’s policy of unlimited immigration from the Middle East, North Africa and Afghanistan while the rest is living a nightmare. A considerable number of Germans have lost their faith in government, the state, the judicial system, the “elite”, as it were, and especially the media. Is there a danger of an imminent coup or collapse: no. But in 20 or 30 years, this part of the world will look very, very different. This development started decades ago, but the attacks in Cologne were surreal. Eastern Europeans currently consider Germany a lunatic asylum, run by lunatics - and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/129 "2016-01-09T20:29:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Go ahead, hide under your bed. I won’t. And you Sir, have a nice day and a nice life. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/130 "2016-01-09T20:29:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > **Not all Western nations are secular** … Argentina and Costa Rica are officially Roman Catholic… Peru, Poland, and Spain have constitutional features favoring Catholicism. Greece and Georgia are officially Eastern Orthodox. English is officially Anglican. Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Norway, and Sweden are all officially Lutheran. This argument borders on being similar to the arguments I criticized upthread as overdosing on political correctness, saying “we westerners are as bad as the Muslims”. Yes, ALL western nations really _are_ secular, when compared to most Muslim nations. The many countries which are “officially” Catholic or Anglican, or Lutheran, have essentially zero discrimination against other religions. They may fund the Catholic church from tax money, or make all school children sing Anglican Christian hymns once a day…but they are western style democracies. Certainly, their social customs and legal systems do not tolerate murdering women for “family honor”, which is a common atttitude in many Muslim countries. (Note: this doesnt mean that we need to be as paranoid as **donnertwetter** is in this thread. The cologne riots are not a 9\11 moment. But they \*are[\i] a wake-up call that needs to be addressed, and not swept under the carpet.) ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/131 "2016-01-09T20:32:28Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Lest we be too proud of our own enlightenment, we should recognize the way that Islamic cultures treat women today is little different than the developed world treated all women sixty or seventy years ago, and much of that behavior was justified on cultural and religious grounds as well (and still is in some places). We’re expecting immigrants to make that leap of decades instantly, and in their lack of doing so regard their behavior as atavistic. If by sixty or seventy years you mean six or seven centuries, when witches were burned. Sixty years ago, my mother had three kids yet was working full time. She started working still in high school. At the same time her mother worked in a defense plant. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/132 "2016-01-09T20:35:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Even before the current crisis a certain number of people were _choosing_ to leave the MENA region and go to Europe or the Americans _because they liked things better there_, or at least hoped to do so. Yes, and I don’t blame them. However then there was at least a reasonable attempt to control who was arriving and find out who they were, now Merkel has thrown the doors wide open. It is at the very least a questionable policy. It would be a strange thing to do for a property-owner never mind a country and one that has had an impact right across Europe. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, there are criminal elements in the wave of humanity that entered Europe this year - that was inevitable given just the sheer numbers of people. It wasn’t a surprise to me. And yes, some of these people come from a society where this sort of conduct is less likely to be punished… which is why they should be taught differently by the German authorities and court system. > > But here in the West we have sub-cultures that are just as tribal, just as degrading to women, and just as repugnant as anything you could find in the MENA. I’m saying let’s not pretend otherwise. Women were raped before all these Syrians arrived, and quite a few of those rapes were perpetrated by men of purely German descent. Where is the outrage about that? Because they were already here? Because Western society has enough home-grown problems without importing more? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/133 "2016-01-09T20:40:29Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I am as dismayed as anyone by the initial reports of police and press that downplayed the events of New Year’s Eve - but you are doing just the opposite. The last time a group of several thousand men committed rape in Germany was probably during the Thirty Years War, if at all. That would be WWII; 10s of 1000s, if not 100s of 1000s of Allied soldiers raped millions of women as if it was the International Year of Rape. Not just in Germany either. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/134 "2016-01-09T20:45:43Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Scared of what exactly? What do you think is going to happen? the exagerated over-heated and over-dramatic internet hyperbole. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Not all Muslim-majority nations have enshrined Sharia law, there are secular Muslim states: Albania, Turkey, and others Let me state again, there is only one that supposedly uses the Sharia directly and it is the Saudi arabia. There is the mixed cases like of the Sudan, which in its strange dictatorship has both civil law and the customary law, haphazard as Nisrine Malik has writtne. But the law codes of most countries in fact are based on adaptations of the French code civil with changes in the family code for adaptation to islamic marriage and inheritance. the family law. for 905+ of the mulsim world only in the areas of the marriage, the divorce and the inheritance is there any implication of islamic custom in law, making it very stupid and absurd when people go on about the islamic law showing they don’t really know much other than what googling through bigotted sites is feeding them. > [@Hiker](#): > > Estimates are that one, not “several”, thousand men of North African or Middle Eastern origin _were present_ at Cologne central station. I have not read any reports stating that all of them took part in the assaults. it is further why I note that I do not think the german can easily tell if somone is an algerian or an italian - the numbers said to be milling about of a certain ethnicity or ethnicities are not something I would trust. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > The power of the German economy will weaken as the productive part of the population ages while an ever increasing part of the population will be living off and demanding welfare. Et voila… so by this we understand you do not see a capacity for other than the europeans origin population to be productive and be anything other than on welfare… interesting > [@](#): > > Eastern Europeans currently consider Germany a lunatic asylum, run by lunatics - and I agree. that is false and ridiculous hyperbole. The German economy is looked up to by every e. european I ahve ever known and the german model is excessively admired, I have never once heard a european, eastern or western, make a statement like this. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/135 "2016-01-09T20:48:27Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > If by sixty or seventy years you mean six or seven centuries, when witches were burned. Sixty years ago, my mother had three kids yet was working full time. She started working still in high school. At the same time her mother worked in a defense plant. The objective figures say he is right - actual economic data on work force participation. Whatever people choose to believe from exagerated prejudcied stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/136 "2016-01-09T20:53:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In the West something called a ‘divorce’ exists. Don’t need to abstain after either. Indeed it does, but having a fixed term to a contracted marriage gives the Shia many advantages, such as not having to commit to a sale, and allowing two lonely people some mutual happiness without any break-up and bitterness. The 3-day marriages might suit visitors to lovely Las Vegas. > [@Nava](#): > > Thirty. Not 60-70, and very much not 200. Thirty years, and less. Mass assaults, no, but no rights, no defense from a bad husband or a bad father or any other man in a position of authority, divorce nonexistant or initiated only by the husband, having to leave a profession you’d trained for on grounds of commiting marriage… Oh balls. In Britain over a hundred years, my parents were divorced; my paternal grandparents were divorced; and my paternal great-grandparents separated ( and she moved back to Spain ) — and each time it was the woman’s decision. And in America divorces were commonly allowed from the mid-19th century, including no-fault divorces, and in some of which states divorce settlements were mandated as crazily generous to women. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/137 "2016-01-09T20:55:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > (Note: this doesnt mean that we need to be as paranoid as **donnertwetter** is in this thread. The cologne riots are not a 9\11 moment. But they \*are[\i] a wake-up call that needs to be addressed, and not swept under the carpet.) Keep in mind that Germany isn’t nearly as big as the U.S. The gymnasium of my old high school (which is less than 1 kilometer away from where I am right now) has been converted into a refugee shelter, the exact number of inhabitants is unknown to the authorities, probably around 150, allegedly mainly Syrians and Iraqis (according to the mayor’s office). Nothing bad has happened as of yet, there is a private security service on site (the security industry, BTW, is booming like no other in Germany). This refugee center/school gymnasium is situated smack in the middle of a residential area, the nearest family homes are across the street, less than 10 meters away. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/138 "2016-01-09T20:56:06Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > legal systems do not tolerate murdering women for “family honor”, which is a common atttitude in many Muslim countries. in certain middle eastern and asian, as it is in certain lower income Christian countries Broomstick was writing responding to a specific wrong point Your gross generalization and amalgam are the same error (it is so convenient to talk Western countries and helpfully exclude lower income christian countries but alagmate all the muslims together as if it is all Afghanistan or the Irak or the Saudi arabia). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/139 "2016-01-09T21:01:55Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Yes, ALL western nations really _are_ secular, when compared to most Muslim nations. The many countries which are “officially” Catholic or Anglican, or Lutheran, have essentially zero discrimination against other religions. They may fund the Catholic church from tax money, or make all school children sing Anglican Christian hymns once a day…but they are western style democracies. Excuse me? Supporting a church via tax money is not a secular feature. Forcing all children to sing Anglican hymns whether or not they’re Anglican is forcing a religious practice on all. Neither of those is secular. > [@](#): > > Certainly, their social customs and legal systems do not tolerate murdering women for “family honor”, which is a common atttitude in many Muslim countries. Excuse me? How about Cyprus? Greece from ancient times through the 20th Century. The Napoleonic Code used a spouse caught in the act of adultery as a mitigating circumstances in murder - that’s Belgium and France, as well as other countries using the French civil code as a base. Italy from the time of ancient Rome through the modern day. India. Uruguay. Mexico, El Salvador, Columbia, Peru, and Chile until the 1990s. Brazil, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Panama, Argentina, Nicaragua, and Ecuador until the 2000’s. None of those customs and laws excusing murder or mitigating it originated in Islam. They came from the Christian or even pre-Christian west. > [@](#): > > (Note: this doesnt mean that we need to be as paranoid as **donnertwetter** is in this thread. The cologne riots are not a 9\11 moment. But they \*are[\i] a wake-up call that needs to be addressed, and not swept under the carpet.) Absolutely. There were repugnant crimes and need to be punished. What I object to is the notion is that this is somehow _unique_ to the MENA region - it’s not. Young men abusing women and raping them is a universal problem. (There’s also a segment of _old_ men doing such things as well, but I suspect it’s more a problem with the young.) > [@Claverhouse](#): > > That would be WWII; 10s of 1000s, if not 100s of 1000s of Allied soldiers raped millions of women as if it was the International Year of Rape. Don’t just mention the Allies - EVERY side was doing rape during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538/140 "2016-01-09T21:06:16Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > And in America divorces were commonly allowed from the mid-19th century, including no-fault divorces, and in some of which states divorce settlements were mandated as crazily generous to women. Except that the laws varied from state to state, which is why so many people “moved” to Nevada specifically to get a divorce. Many states through the middle of the 20th Century only allowed divorce for cause, such as adultery. And some of the “crazy generous” settlements for women were mandated because until the 1970’s it was _legal_ to pay women less for the exact same work as men did in many places, and many professions were entirely barred to women. Women were less able to support themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-so-what-the-hell-happened-in-germany-in-nye/742538.md?page=8)