# OK, someone tell me why I should stop panicking. (NSA call database.) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368 "2006-05-11T14:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/1 "2006-05-11T14:15:43Z")
Now, I’m not a frequent denzien of the pit. I think I’ve made maybe two OP’s here, and none of them political. I’m not a fan of the current administration, but I’m not about to blame Bush for tooth decay, either. But [this](http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/nsahasmassivedatabaseofamericansphonecalls;_ylt=AvjVNn6FgWvF1hCxfQx_0NKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--) has me freaking out just a little bit. > [@](#): > > The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY. > The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans - most of whom aren’t suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews. > > \ > > For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made - across town or across the country - to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others > > \ > > The NSA’s domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop - without warrants - on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA’s efforts to create a national call database. > > In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. “In other words,” Bush explained, “one end of the communication must be outside the United States.” > > As a result, domestic call records - those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders - were believed to be private. > > Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers’ names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA’s domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information. > > \ > > Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants. > > \ > > The NSA’s domestic program raises legal questions. Historically, AT&T and the regional phone companies have required law enforcement agencies to present a court order before they would even consider turning over a customer’s calling data. Part of that owed to the personality of the old Bell Telephone System, out of which those companies grew. > > Ma Bell’s bedrock principle - protection of the customer - guided the company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director of Consumers Union. “No court order, no customer information - period. That’s how it was for decades,” he said. > > The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers’ calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered. > > \ IANAL, but I’m having trouble seeing how this could be vaguely legal, if true. Yet many of these things end up being so under some tortuous legal reasoning not fully understood by laypeople. Can someone help me figure out why we shouldn’t be freaking out here? (Put in the Pit to avoid closure should it get parisan and ugly, as I fear. I will not add swears to make it “pitworthy”, however.) ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/2 "2006-05-11T14:34:34Z")
Haven’t they been doing that for years already? I have heard about this years ago. Your internet-use is also monitored and archived, I think. There was a name for this, I think Echelon. It is used to monitor European email and telephone traffic too. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/3 "2006-05-11T14:36:22Z")
By the way : there have been reports about the Echelon spy-network as far back as 1998, so I don’t think it has much to do with the current US administration. I think it is time to invest in some tinfoil hats. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/4 "2006-05-11T15:02:34Z")
There’s no reason to panic. The Justice department is looking into the matter, making sure everything OK, and your rights are being protected. See: [NSA Stymies Justice Dept. Spying Probe](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060511/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/domestic_spying_5) > [@](#): > > The government has abruptly ended an inquiry into the warrantless eavesdropping program because the National Security Agency refused to grant Justice Department lawyers the necessary security clearance to probe the matter. > The Justice Department’s Office of Professional Responsibility, or OPR, sent a fax to Rep. Maurice Hinchey (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., on Wednesday saying they were closing their inquiry because without clearance their lawyers cannot examine Justice lawyers’ role in the program. Do not attempt to contact love ones, insurance agent or attorney. Shut up. Be Happy! ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/5 "2006-05-11T15:04:25Z")
> [@](#): > > In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. “In other words,” Bush explained, “one end of the communication must be outside the United States.” Wasn’t there a time when it was considered significant if the President told the citizenry a blatant lie about something important? Nowadays, the President gets caught in lies over and over, pretty much on a weekly basis, and it doesn’t seem to matter. Certainly I never see the word “lying” in news articles like this. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/6 "2006-05-11T15:08:04Z")
From the link, “it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made.” This is what bothers me, legalities aside for a moment. I wouldn’t personally be too upset about the NSA extracting and compiling aggregate data (e.g., count of calls per time period, count of calls to country X per date from city Y, etc.), but “detailed records” sound vaguely like good old fashioned indiscrimiate wire tapping to me. It looks like I’d have to do a bit of research before I can figure out if I should be outraged or not. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/7 "2006-05-11T15:21:44Z")
What we need is for a few million of us to call Pakistan tomorrow. Any Pakistani number will do. Doesn’t matter if they speak English on the other end or not. Just say “Bush,” “bomb,” and “Al Qaeda” then hang up. We can overload the Echelon system with false positives and send the whole system crashing into rubble. We can do it! Now, who’s with me? \ ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/8 "2006-05-11T15:21:54Z")
> [@Scoundrel Swanswater](#): > > By the way : there have been reports about the Echelon spy-network as far back as 1998, so I don’t think it has much to do with the current US administration. > I think it is time to invest in some tinfoil hats. So you’re telling us we should have been panicking for 8 years now? Oh, great! 🙂 (I’d vaguely heard of Echelon before, but thought it was all tinfoil hat nonsense conspiracy theory stuff. Are you saying it wasn’t, and this NSA thing **is** Echelon, or that there’s two mass information gathering efforts going on?) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/9 "2006-05-11T15:25:04Z")
[Echelon](http://www.hermetic.ch/crypto/echelon/echelon.htm) [More Echelon](http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/echelon.html) [Even more Echelon](http://home.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html) Panic now and avoid the rush! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/10 "2006-05-11T15:27:15Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > From the link, “it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made.” This is what bothers me, legalities aside for a moment. I wouldn’t personally be too upset about the NSA extracting and compiling aggregate data (e.g., count of calls per time period, count of calls to country X per date from city Y, etc.), but “detailed records” sound vaguely like good old fashioned indiscrimiate wire tapping to me. I don’t think “wiretapping” is the correct term here since we’re talking about phone records, not actual conversations. Still, I do believe even that would require a warrant. I wonder why all the phone companies (except Qwest) agreed to cooperate. Let’s see how this story plays out over the next few days. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/11 "2006-05-11T15:30:09Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > Wasn’t there a time when it was considered significant if the President told the citizenry a blatant lie about something important? Nowadays, the President gets caught in lies over and over, pretty much on a weekly basis, and it doesn’t seem to matter. Certainly I never see the word “lying” in news articles like this. Shut up. Or grow a brain. Please. Bush was talking about calls in which the conversations were monitored. This thread is asking about data ABOUT calls being collected. There’s some concern about that data collection – so far as I can tell, it’s not legal – but Bush’s above comment has nothing to do with this. Please try to follow along with the adults, or go sit at the kid’s table, ok? ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/12 "2006-05-11T15:30:52Z")
I want to get worked up, I really do…but this is just another example, in a long line, of the current admins clear disdain for the nations laws. makes you sick. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/13 "2006-05-11T15:41:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Shut up. > > Or grow a brain. > > Please. Bush was talking about calls in which the conversations were monitored. This thread is asking about data ABOUT calls being collected. > > There’s some concern about that data collection – so far as I can tell, it’s not legal – but Bush’s above comment has nothing to do with this. Please try to follow along with the adults, or go sit at the kid’s table, ok? Why are you being such a prick about it? These programs are linked in the article referenced by the OP. Or do you remain such an administration cocksucker that you’re going to assert that “Bush would never do anything like lie about what his administration is up to”? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/14 "2006-05-11T15:48:45Z")
Forgot to add that it was already indicated that the wiretap surveillance program was capturing domestic calls. > **[Spying Program Snared U.S. Calls (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/politics/spying-program-snared-us-calls.html)** > > National Security Agency surveillance program approved by Pres Bush to conduct eavesdropping without warrants has captured purely domestic communications on some occasions, apparently accidentally, despite requirement that one end of conversation... This recent revelation is just further evidence that Bush cannot be trusted to be honest about the scope of the “Terrorist Surveillance Program.” ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/15 "2006-05-11T15:53:55Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Can someone help me figure out why we shouldn’t be freaking out here? Well, the various security & intelligence agencies have time & again proven themselves to be completely ineffective. For instance: 1. Where is Osama? 2. Who mailed all that anthrax around? 3. A coordinated & well communicated plan to hijack airplanes & crash them into the WTC went completely undetected & succeeded. 4. The bombing of that OK federal building was successful, even after 5. A similar bombing was made at the previously-mentioned WTC 6. A lunatic actually managed to shoot then-president Ronald Reagan So, it seems you’d have to mail them your driver license and possibly a self-addressed stamped envelope before they’d take notice of you. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/16 "2006-05-11T16:09:47Z")
You don’t need to worry, because the man who implemented this program at the NSA has just been nominated to direct the CIA. Enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/17 "2006-05-11T16:17:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > What we need is for a few million of us to call Pakistan tomorrow. Any Pakistani number will do. Doesn’t matter if they speak English on the other end or not. Just say “Bush,” “bomb,” and “Al Qaeda” then hang up. We can overload the Echelon system with false positives and send the whole system crashing into rubble. We can do it! Now, who’s with me? > > \ I like this idea. I like it a lot more than the gubmit harvesting phone data. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/18 "2006-05-11T16:25:00Z")
I’m shocked to learn that Qwest doesn’t completely suck. They only mostly suck. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/19 "2006-05-11T16:25:37Z")
I have it from sources pretty high up that as long as you’re not a terrorist you’re perfectly safe. Now tell me, do you have anything to be worried about? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/20 "2006-05-11T16:34:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t think “wiretapping” is the correct term here since we’re talking about phone records, not actual conversations. Still, I do believe even that would require a warrant. The USA Today article is silent on the subject of emails, but given that the earlier revelations about NSA wiretapping included email along with voice, it would surprise me if they weren’t collecting email info too. The additional work involved in making the jump from gathering an email header to collecting the contents of the email is obviously much smaller than that from gathering phone numbers dialed to picking up the contents of the conversation. And while IANAL, my somewhat shaky understanding (based on a lot of stuff I only semi-understand about pen registers and trap and trace devices) is that the legal barriers are less daunting as well with respect to email. > [@](#): > > I wonder why all the phone companies (except Qwest) agreed to cooperate. [Here’s one possible reason](http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm): > [@](#): > > In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest’s foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368.md?page=2)