# OK, someone tell me why I should stop panicking. (NSA call database.) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368 "2006-05-11T14:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/201 "2006-05-17T14:39:49Z")
Hyperinflated Ego … check More interested in getting a laugh than debate… check Misrepresentations … check Constant demonization of anyone who disagrees … check Has problems going longer than 15 minutes without mentioning Clinton or Kennedy… check Full of sound and fury signifying nothing … check Disinfotainer … check Glosses over, without refutation, arguments of opponents … check Unwavering support for the Republican party… check Uncanny ability to “take the high road” … check Meglomanical … check Amusing, but worthless in an actual debate … check You know **Scylla** , you gain a few pounds, develop an Oxycontin habit, and get a few more brainless sycophants and I see great things in your future!! For those still interested in the issue, it appears that both Bell South and Verizon are denying that they turned over telephone records to the NSA. What credibility USA Today had could take a serious hit. And I look forward to this administration’s newfound openness, especially with Hayden’s upcoming confirmation hearings. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/202 "2006-05-17T15:33:17Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > For those still interested in the issue, it appears that both Bell South and Verizon are denying that they turned over telephone records to the NSA. What credibility USA Today had could take a serious hit. Funny how it took them several days to issue the denials. While it’s always possible that it simply took several days for the head honchos at Verizon and BellSouth to ascertain that no hanky-panky was happening, another possibility is that the lag time was about getting the lawyers and the technicians together to craft the denials with the proper care, so that they’d _look_ like they were denying making information about billions of calls available to the NSA, while leaving some loophole that would apply to their actual conduct. I notice that [Verizon’s denial](http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/16/news/companies/verizon_statement/index.htm) was couched in terms of language about ‘providing data’ to NSA. If Verizon simply provided the NSA with access to their lines, couldn’t the NSA just scoop up the data on its own - and wouldn’t Verizon’s statement then be technically true? > [@](#): > > And I look forward to this administration’s newfound openness, especially with Hayden’s upcoming confirmation hearings. And I look forward to being seduced by Catherine Zeta-Jones. We all have our fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/203 "2006-05-17T15:42:13Z")
Ignoring the facts … check Ignoring the law (FISA, 4th Amendment, etc) … check Ignoring documented lies and evasions from Der Chimper … check Dipping into the “you’re all partisan” after always accusing the Dems and liberals … check Depending on a drugged up lying radio scumbag for info … check Insulting posters and then expecting respect in return … LOL ROLMAO ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/204 "2006-05-17T18:33:51Z")
> [@RT](#): > > For those still interested in the issue, it appears that both Bell South and Verizon are denying that they turned over telephone records to the NSA. What credibility USA Today had could take a serious hit. Several possibilities: 1. They’re telling the truth and USA Today, Qwest, and AT&T are lying. Why would they lie about something like that? Why, to embarass Bush, of course, because that’s what evil libruls do, because they hate America and love terrorists. 2. The “denials” are in fact non-denial denials crafted by lawyers and techs to simply make a headline that says “Verizon denies handing over information to NSA”. That way, the people who get all their news via headline will say “Oh, it’s all OK then.” They’ve probably been getting some pretty angry calls from their subscribers and are trying to cover their asses. They could also face criminal and civil liability on this issue and are preparing for litigation. 3. The phone companies recived National Security Letters instructing them to hand over the data. If those NSLs are worded like the ones libraries have been recieving, they have gag orders included which procludes them from telling the people whose records have been pulled that they are under investigation. 4. This whole story was a piece of disinformation deliberately planted with USA Today in order to discredit the paper and to undermine the credibility of Bush critics and all non-Bush-machine approved media. See also: National Guard, Dan Rather. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/205 "2006-05-17T19:20:14Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Go for it. Done and done. Ta. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/206 "2006-05-18T01:17:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I notice that [Verizon’s denial](http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/16/news/companies/verizon_statement/index.htm) was couched in terms of language about ‘providing data’ to NSA. If Verizon simply provided the NSA with access to their lines, couldn’t the NSA just scoop up the data on its own - and wouldn’t Verizon’s statement then be technically true? You will note that in one of my much maligned (yet curiously ignored) cites it says that in 1994 (IIRC,) under **Bill Clinton** [sub]blowjob, Lewinsky, rape, perjury[/sub] 500 million dollars was spent to install equiptment to provide the government with access to the information they might request by warrant or other lawful means. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/207 "2006-05-18T01:43:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You will note that in one of my much maligned (yet curiously ignored) cites it says that in 1994 (IIRC,) under **Bill Clinton** [sub]blowjob, Lewinsky, rape, perjury[/sub] 500 million dollars was spent to install equiptment to provide the government with access to the information they might request by warrant or other lawful means. As an old telephone person, I can say that if you want this information from a modern switch, you can no longer go to a central office and listen to the clicks. If there was a legitimate (with warrant) need to collect this information in a timely fashion, it would be impossible if the monitoring equipment were not pre-installed. So, doing this is actually necessary if you want to do things, like, for instance, catch terrorists before they blow anything up. Given that there was a law defining when these records could be collected, sounds reasonable. Unless of course I were a paranoid right winger, who decides that for sure if the equipment existed the government would surely misuse it by collecting the information without a court order. But in 2001 my mind would be set at ease, because a Republican president would never do such a thing. Oh, wait. In other words, if you have a skeleton key for a hotel in order to be able to get into a room in case of suspected crime or emergency, it does not give you the right to wander into every room rummaging through the drawers. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/208 "2006-05-18T01:46:06Z")
Voyager: That is a good point, and I see no flaw in your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![beebee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47774/32.png) [@beebee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beebee)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/209 "2006-05-18T10:30:31Z")
don’t kid yourself - we are living in a police state. what scares me is, dubyah says he gets his orders from God. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/210 "2006-05-18T11:08:01Z")
> [@beebee](#): > > don’t kid yourself - we are living in a police state. what scares me is, dubyah says he gets his orders from God. It was funnier when the Blues Brothers said that. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/211 "2006-05-18T13:10:54Z")
My post (195) has the verbage of what Clinton signed. It is a little different from what is being represented. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/212 "2006-05-18T19:39:35Z")
You mean **Scylla** distorted the facts to try to score political zinger points? _No, it can’t be!_ :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/213 "2006-05-19T01:17:12Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Hyperinflated Ego … check > More interested in getting a laugh than debate… check > Misrepresentations … check > Constant demonization of anyone who disagrees … check > Has problems going longer than 15 minutes without mentioning Clinton or Kennedy… check > Full of sound and fury signifying nothing … check > Disinfotainer … check > Glosses over, without refutation, arguments of opponents … check > Unwavering support for the Republican party… check > Uncanny ability to “take the high road” … check > Meglomanical … check > Amusing, but worthless in an actual debate … check > > You know **Scylla** , you gain a few pounds, develop an Oxycontin habit, and get a few more brainless sycophants and I see great things in your future!! 1 post after your apology. So much for your integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/214 "2006-05-19T01:35:30Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > My post (195) has the verbage of what Clinton signed. It is a little different from what is being represented. That’s because you’ve made an error. I referred to and cited the Law Enforcement Act of 1994 in my post. What you cite and refer to is the Foreign Intelligence and Surveillance Act of 1995. Because they are two different acts referring to two different things they are a little different. So, if someone has made a misrepresentation it is you. I assume that it was an honest mistake. However, I would ask that you be more careful in the future, as it fuels the likes of rjung, and he is stupid and ignorant and irresponsible enough in his statements without help. We’re supposed to be _fighting_ ignorance, not aiding it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/215 "2006-05-19T02:23:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > 1 post after your apology. So much for your integrity. My integrity? Dude, you’ve leapt past silly into irrationality in 30 seconds flat, with a quick stop at Asshole for a fill-up. I apologize, and request we conduct an honest debate, and you say you weren’t offended, and go off on some ego trip that was, apparently, meant to be funny, all the while ignoring the actual debate. Now you’re back insulting my integrity. With every post, I question your sanity more and more. The one thing I no longer question is whether you’re a complete dick. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/216 "2006-05-19T03:18:31Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > My integrity? Dude, you’ve leapt past silly into irrationality in 30 seconds flat, with a quick stop at Asshole for a fill-up. I apologize, and request we conduct an honest debate, and you say you weren’t offended, and go off on some ego trip that was, apparently, meant to be funny, all the while ignoring the actual debate. No. While I did try to be funny (you did say this was the pit and some snarkiness was to be expected, so I obliged, I seriously addressed your question about why it was important to discuss the motivations of Kennedy et al in their casting blame. You have completely ignored that, and simply returned to insults. Check my last several posts. I’ve been debating the debate (except in our tiresome asides) you’ve been engaging in pure ad hominem attacks. > [@](#): > > Now you’re back insulting my integrity. Yes. Seriously. I am. You started with this. You apologized for it. You immediately did it again. Grow the fuck up. If it’s wrong and you recognize it, then don’t do it. If you recognize it, and you apologize for it, and you do it again immediately, then yes, I question the integrity of your apology. You’re responsible for your own actions. If you want to debate, than debate. If you want to cast insults, than cast insults. But don’t apologize, then do it again, and pretend like I’m making you do it, while wondering how can I doubt your integrity. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/217 "2006-05-19T05:14:55Z")
I see we have another conversation about a conversation on our hands; or possibly, another pissing contest about a pissing contest. Perhaps it would be best if I engage my fabled thread-killer application by repeating my post #174. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Scylla** > > “The law that President Clinton signed into law and that was approved by voice votes in 1994 by a Democrat-majority House and a Democrat-majority Senate not only made clear the phone companies’ “duty” to cooperate, it authorized $500 million in taxpayer funds to reimburse the phone companies for equipment “enabling the government, pursuant to a court order or other lawful authorization, to access call-identifying information that is reasonably available to the carrier.” Again, the law, by referring to “other lawful authorization,” states clearly that a court order isn’t the only form of lawful authorization possible”. > > I don’t go in much for reading the entire text of legislation, myself, but, some time ago, I was given to understand that legislators are occasionally considerate enough to provide definitions of terms somewhere in the text of the laws they propose. > > Is it too much to hope that a definition of the term “lawful authorization” was provided in the text of the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act of 1994? > > Maybe something indicating whether or not only law enforcement agencies were eligible to submit the “lawful authorization” and receive data in exchange? If such were the case, would it require contortionist skills rarely seen outside _Cirque du Soliel_ to construe the NSA as a Law Enforcement agency, or is the NSA already generally recognized as such? > > Anything limiting who else in government the Law Enforcement agencies are permitted to share with? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/218 "2006-05-19T13:06:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’ve been debating the debate (except in our tiresome asides) you’ve been engaging in pure ad hominem attacks. Oh, I see. I thought the debate was about the NSA and its newly revealed programs, and not about what **Scylla** thinks about Democrats. THAT was my mistake, forgetting that any thread that may reflect badly on this administration must be about what **Scylla** thinks about Democrats. I’m sorry I didn’t immediately bow to your redefintion of the “debate”, but here, I’ll help you out now that I understand, what the real debate is about: I’ll tell you one telephone number the NSA will never get is Mary Jo Kopechne’s!!I’m surprised that Lewinski’s blowjob wasn’t caught on tape by the Echelon program!!! The one good thing is that Pelosi’s telephone calls aren’t even worth wiretapping!!! Feel better? > [@Scylla](#): > > Yes. Seriously. I am. You started with this. You apologized for it. You immediately did it again. Grow the fuck up. If it’s wrong and you recognize it, then don’t do it. Would you please decide whether you’re a poor wounded puppy or modern day Zeus, beyond the reach of us mere mortals. Cause I’m getting whiplash. > [@Scylla](#): > > If you recognize it, and you apologize for it, and you do it again immediately, then yes, I question the integrity of your apology. I honestly meant my apology, and your reaction, of hyperinflated importance and senselessness, was not the classy acceptance I had hoped for. And the comparison between you and Rush pretty much wrote itself, it was just too easy. > [@Scylla](#): > > You’re responsible for your own actions. If you want to debate, than debate. If you want to cast insults, than cast insults. But don’t apologize, then do it again, and pretend like I’m making you do it, while wondering how can I doubt your integrity. Debating and insults are not mutually exclusive, especially in the Pit. Acting the martyred, wilting flower, and then, in the next breath, the all-powerful warrior, and then, back to the wilting flower, in my opinion, is. I’m definitely insulting you more than necessary in this thread. Nobody’s making me do it; I’m, on occasion, a right bastard, and, for whatever reason, you bring out the best of it. None of which has anything to do with my “integrity”. Back in posts 135, 137, and others, you asked some questions. I spent a couple hours doing research into the answers to those questions, and presented my thoughts on the issues you raised. Those thoughts, and the questions I raised in them, were resounding ignored by you, instead you chose to lash out at the motives of anyone who questions the NSA’s behavior. Since those actions are, apparently, your definition of “debate”, I drew a comparison between you and Rush. You responded by questioning my “integrity.” And here we are, at the end (I hope) of a stupid pissing match that makes us both look like idiots. I am very sorry with how this thread turned out, in good part because of my own impatience with you and your “arguments”. But you are right that I have nobody to blame but myself. I can only hope the legions of **Hamlet** fans can look past this, and that we can continue to move forward together, for the good of the message board, nay, the country. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/219 "2006-05-19T13:10:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That’s because you’ve made an error. I referred to and cited the Law Enforcement Act of 1994 in my post. > > What you cite and refer to is the Foreign Intelligence and Surveillance Act of 1995. > > Because they are two different acts referring to two different things they are a little different. > > So, if someone has made a misrepresentation it is you. I assume that it was an honest mistake. However, I would ask that you be more careful in the future, as it fuels the likes of rjung, and he is stupid and ignorant and irresponsible enough in his statements without help. > > We’re supposed to be _fighting_ ignorance, not aiding it. My apologies. if I got it wrong. If there was a misrepresentation, it was unintended. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/220 "2006-05-19T17:47:50Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Voyager: > > That is a good point, and I see no flaw in your reasoning. Thank you. You see, the real risk of what Bush is doing, and something that should concern people of all political persuasions, is that a record of abuse might make it harder to get any such system approved in the future. If a Republican president can claim that he is above the law, then a Democratic president can do the same thing. Case in point - Nixon’s abuse of the intelligence system for political purposes was the cause of the law limiting cooperation between the FBI and CIA, which was certainly one of the many reasons the September 11 plot was not detected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368.md?page=12)