# OK, someone tell me why I should stop panicking. (NSA call database.) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368 "2006-05-11T14:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/101 "2006-05-12T01:36:25Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think you’re wrong about Tweety, but note that I didn’t criticize the messenger _as a way of avoiding_ having to deal with the message itself. Emphasis added-- nice little _ad hominem_. But you just assumed he wasn’t to be trusted to delve into this, and on that you’re just wrong. I watch his program almost every day, and he is not soft on Bush. Anyway, I’m not trying to avoid the issue either. I’m just a little suspicious that we don’t have all the facts. This program was written about by the NYT several months ago and there was no uproar. What’s different now? I’m prepared to be outraged, but I want the news organization to digest this fully before deciding one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/102 "2006-05-12T01:37:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s just perfectly normal paranoia. Everybody’s got that. 😉 But if everybody’s got it, perhaps that means something! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/103 "2006-05-12T01:56:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Emphasis added-- nice little _ad hominem_. [Nope.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem) There’s a difference between _insult_ and _ad hiominem_: > [@](#): > > An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally “argument against the person”) or attacking the messenger, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion _rather than the argument itself_. Emphasis mine. In no case have I attacked Tweety instead of an argument. I’ve just been unkind to him. > [@](#): > > This program was written about by the NYT several months ago and there was no uproar. What’s different now? I’m prepared to be outraged, but I want the news organization to digest this fully before deciding one way or another. Link? Or did you give one earlier that I missed? At any rate, I’ve long been beyond the point of desiring mere impeachment; I’m ready to join a mob of villagers with torches and pitchforks. (Wouldn’t that be a hell of a bit of protest theatre - a bunch of people standing in Lafayette Park across from the White House with torches and pitchforks? You’d have to de-weaponize them somehow in order to keep them from busting the protest, but that’s doable.) So this just adds more fuel to the fire for me. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/104 "2006-05-12T02:00:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I tried to see if the Judiciary Committee site had a transcript, to find the exact choice of the questioner’s words, but no go; it’s just got Gonzales’ opening statement. So I can’t tell what Gonzales didn’t rule out: whether it was what we’ve just found out about, or whether he was talking about listening in on the conversations themselves. I was able to track down a transcript link at [TPM Muckracker](http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000622.php), that indispensable resource. It’s in PDF form, so I won’t quote, but on p.7 and again on pp.18-19, he repeatedly makes it clear that he wouldn’t rule out eavesdropping on Americans inside the U.S. without warrants. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/105 "2006-05-12T03:17:47Z")
TMobile has already released a statement to their customers reassuring them that the NSA has none of their call records, nor will they be getting any unless the government ponies up a subpoena or twenty million. I’m feeling a bit less violated, since I don’t have a landline and have had my TMo account since early '03–the bastards probably don’t have many of my records. I was afraid I might have to cancel my service, which I’d be doing right the hell now if I had Verizon or Cingular. I wonder if their non-disclosure of release of records is grounds enough for customers to get out of early termination fees? Nice to know that Deutsche Telekom is more punctilious about protecting customer privacy than all those “true blue American” companies who rolled over like a roofed bottom at a drunken orgy… :dubious: :wally :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Fritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fritz)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/106 "2006-05-12T03:40:24Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > OK, just for (maybe) interest, here is the text of the lettere I intend to send to Verizon: > > Verizon Customer Sales and Solutions Center > PO Box 11328 > St. Petersburg, FL 11328 > > 11 May 2006 > > To Whom it May Concern: > > On this date, the newspaper USA Today has published a story that leads off with the statement: “The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth…”. > > The USA Today story goes on to mention that: “Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers’ calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered. > > I likewise note that the Telephone Company Privacy and Customer Security Policy on Verizon’s Internet web site includes the following statement: > > Disclosure of Information Outside Verizon > As a rule, Verizon will notify you and give you the opportunity to “opt out” when we disclose telephone customer information outside of Verizon. In fact, we generally keep our records of the services you buy and the calls you make private, and will not ordinarily disclose this information to outside parties without your permission. However, we do release customer information without involving you if disclosure is required by law or to protect the safety of customers, employees or property. > > As a Verizon Wireless customer of long standing, I would very much like to have answers to the following questions: > > 1. Has Verizon or Verizon Wireless indeed secretly released the calling records of its customers to the NSA, as stated in the May 11 USA Today article? > 2. If the answer to the above is yes, how does Verizon explain this apparently blatant violation of both section 222 of Communications Act and its own internal policy? > > The nature of your answer to this letter will determine whether I wish to continue as a Verizon Wireless customer > Sincerely, > > El\_Kabong’s real name Thanks, **El\_Kabong** I’ve sent my copy of this letter to Verizon. > [@Bricker](#): > > Shut up. > > Or grow a brain. Oh, and Bricker? Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/107 "2006-05-12T04:56:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [Nope.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem) There’s a difference between _insult_ and _ad hiominem_: > Emphasis mine. In no case have I attacked Tweety instead of an argument. I’ve just been unkind to him. Yeah, whatever. > [@](#): > > Link? Or did you give one \*\*earlier \*\*that I missed? See the links in post #63 from **Hamlet** (esp the second one). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/108 "2006-05-12T06:58:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > At any rate, I’ve long been beyond the point of desiring mere impeachment; I’m ready to join a mob of villagers with torches and pitchforks. (Wouldn’t that be a hell of a bit of protest theatre - a bunch of people standing in Lafayette Park across from the White House with torches and pitchforks? You’d have to de-weaponize them somehow in order to keep them from busting the protest, but that’s doable.) So this just adds more fuel to the fire for me. What a great idea! You could use cardboard pitchforks and cellophane torches. Where the hell are the Yippies when you need them? ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/109 "2006-05-12T10:09:13Z")
From the NSA [website](http://www.nsa.gov/contacts/index.cfm): > [@](#): > > If you have a general inquiry, contact Public and Media Affairs at \ or send e-mail to \ I think we should all give them a call and politely ask them to take us off their list. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/110 "2006-05-12T10:16:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Where the hell are the Yippies when you need them? Keeping an eye on their mutual funds via the wifi connection down to Starbucks. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/111 "2006-05-12T11:41:16Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > At any rate, I’ve long been beyond the point of desiring mere impeachment; I’m ready to join a mob of villagers with torches and pitchforks. (Wouldn’t that be a hell of a bit of protest theatre - a bunch of people standing in Lafayette Park across from the White House with torches and pitchforks? You’d have to de-weaponize them somehow in order to keep them from busting the protest, but that’s doable.) So this just adds more fuel to the fire for me. The mob grows. > **[Bush Dips Into the 20s](https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-WB-381)** > [@](#): > > Bush Dips Into the 20s > President Bush’s job-approval rating has fallen to its lowest mark of his presidency… 29! Shit - 29%! I think more people approve of getting skidmarks in their underwear than approve of the leader of the Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/112 "2006-05-12T12:20:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Thing is, if someone wants to illegally harrass me or threaten me or such, the fact that it’s illegal to tap my phone or whatever isn’t going to stop them. And if it’s legal to tap my phone or monitor my calling patterns, how does that help them illegally harrass or threaten me? Likewise for criminal investigations. If the government has enough information to suspect me of some sort of crime, enough to justify some law enforcement agent to comb through my phone records, then they can already easily get a warrant to do so. If the government is willing to illegally harrass me for my political activity, how does not legally being able to monitor my phone activity restrain them? The main practical restraint on such abuses is to keep multiple people in the loop who are not bound by a common political interest. That puts the abuser at risk of being exposed when he initially attempts the abuse, rather than (possibly) some time after the fact. This is why the telecom companies that cooperated without proper legal authorization deserve at least as much condemnation as the administration. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/113 "2006-05-12T13:14:29Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I think more people approve of getting skidmarks in their underwear than approve of the leader of the Republican Party. You fuckhead - I was drinking my _coffee!!_ :eek: 😉😃 Earlier this week, Josh Marshall wondered how long it would be before we got the first outlier poll showing Bush’s approval ratings in the 20s. Didn’t take long at all, did it? 😃 Nixon spent most of 1974 at ~26%. So Bush’s down to 1974 Nixon + 3%. The GOP still controls the White House and both houses of Congress, so they can do a lot of damage if the Dems aren’t willing to fight. At this point, the Dems should block anything nonessential that they’re not strongly for, since they’ll be in a stronger negotiating position 8 months from now. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/114 "2006-05-12T13:37:37Z")
Well, obviously I’m out of the mainstream, as if I didn’t know that already. The local ABC news radio outlet, and that lovable old reactionary Paul Harvey, have been trumpeting an overnight poll that sez 2/3 of those asked were pefectly OK with the NSA having their phone records. So basically, according to them, 2/3 of the country sees no problem with its government trolling telecommunications on open-ended fishing expeditions, as long as the words ‘fighting terrorism’ appear somewhere as explanation. :rolleyes: and :rolleyes: again. Meanwhile, in [this article](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/nsa_data_mining), a spokesman for Verizon Wireless has said that they are “not involved in this situation”. Verizon (at least in this article) does not deny it turned over land line call info, however, nor does both Cingular and Sprint Nextel. I’ve already mailed my letter anyway. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/115 "2006-05-12T13:38:26Z")
Hell, I’ve called Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, emailed people there(not all Western People either) and I look weekly at the Arab News on line. I just KNOW I’m being monitered. (What’s the frequency Kenneth??) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/116 "2006-05-12T13:55:24Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I guess what I’m trying to say is that as much as I hate agreeing with all the smelly, hairy armpit, left-wing, pinko, dope-smoking, freedom hating, Bush-bashing, ignorant, lying, draft-dodging, tree-hugging, Kennedy voting scum like Xeno, Hentor, and RTF (no offense, guys,) > I have to admit that I’m not feeling too good about this one. It’s okay. I agreed with **Sam Stone** ’s comments about wind mill farms. And Bob Barr is working with the ACLU. Interesting times in which we live. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/117 "2006-05-12T15:09:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t necessarily buy it either. I’m just reporting what was presented on Hardball. There were plenty of comments from Republicans and Democrats, too. > > And of course data is useless until you use it. The point the guy was trying to make was that having the data already assembled would make it possible to react moe quickly. If the find out your number is “hot”, they get a warrant to trace it to other numbers, and they already have the data assembled to go as soon as they get the warrant. Given Bush’s lack of respect for warrants, I don’t see why he should expect us to trust him on this (if, in fact, that NBC analyst got his facts right). I didn’t see Chris Matthews’ show, so I can’t comment on whatever he said. But, like you, I don’t feel very warm or fuzzy about the talk from Washington about it all being legal, and about our privacy still being respected. I also don’t buy the bit about getting a warrant. There’s already been a few flaps about that… FISA says they can do their thing, and have 72 hours to get a warrant afterwards. The flap at that time was, they didn’t bother going to the FISA judges or get a warrant, at all. So no, I don’t believe them this time. Besides, if it were all lewgal and proper, then why block the Dept of Justice investigation? It’s all a bit too fishy. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/118 "2006-05-12T15:53:48Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > 29! Shit - 29%! I think more people approve of getting skidmarks in their underwear than approve of the leader of the Republican Party. God…that’s the funniest thing I think I’ve ever read on this board. I could see The Daily Show putting up a graphic, comparing various approval ratings: Barry Bonds’ performance: 34% Getting skidmarks in your underwear: 31% President Bush’s performance: 29% Getting dumped by your girlfriend: 23% Having a bird shit on your car: 18% ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/119 "2006-05-12T16:08:57Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > From the NSA [website](http://www.nsa.gov/contacts/index.cfm): > I think we should all give them a call and politely ask them to take us off their list. **BlackKnight** , I removed the contact info from your post. I know you were just quoting the NSA website, but our rules on posting contact info don’t allow it. People can follow the link if they want to contact NSA. (Or just speak clearly into their home telephone.) ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368/120 "2006-05-12T16:24:54Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Meanwhile, in [this article](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/nsa_data_mining), a spokesman for Verizon Wireless has said that they are “not involved in this situation”. Verizon (at least in this article) does not deny it turned over land line call info, however, nor does both Cingular and Sprint Nextel. I’ve already mailed my letter anyway. When I called Sprint yesterday, the spokesman I talked to assured me that they do not turn over information to the NSA or anybody else without a warrant that has been gone over by their legal team. He was just a flunky, but he said that’s their policy. He also said he’d been getting calls about it all day long. I told him to strongly encourage his higher-ups at corporate to issue an offical statement about the company’s policy. And as for what political oppression uses social network data mining could be put to, I can think of dozens off the top of my head. If someone on the staff of a political appointment made frequent calls to someone who was a suspected drug dealer or prostitute, you could have that person arrested on suspicion to embarass your opponent. Or if you wanted to blackmail someone, there’s plenty of opportunity in the phone records. You could deny goverment contracts to anyone who had called your political opponent’s offices. You could launch an investigation into any women who had called Planned Parenthood. You could break up ELF or Earth First cells by tracing the call patterns. You could find the “nodes”–political organizers–and just arrest them to disrupt a poltical party. Or, of course in extreme circumstances you could just round up everybody who had called an “enemy of the state” and throw them in a concentration camp. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-someone-tell-me-why-i-should-stop-panicking-nsa-call-database/356368.md?page=7)