OK, Stoid, Hunting v. free range beef

Great Debates
41

You haven’t understood a single word I said.

I understand your position very clearly. The problem is it is founded upon this false premise.

The number of considerate and explicit posts showing why this is untrue have fallen on deaf ears and been summarily rejected by you because you are so sure that you know better.

Here I am arguing with a complete stranger, who was never met me, and has no conceivable understanding as to my motivations.

This same person is ignorant of a particular area in which I am an expert.

Based on a total lack of knowledge justified by a repugnance to this area she claims to make blanket characterizations of those who do have experience in it.

…now I’m willfully ignorant?

One more time with emphasis:

You do not know. You do not understand. You choose not to. You are wrong. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Until you are willing to at least conditionally accept the premise that the joy of hunting is not murdering, then these things will remain true.

I suspect that you like it better, and it fits more neatly into your worldview to have it your way.

Do you wish to debate and seek mutual understanding or do you just wish to throw the same meaningless premise around and around and pretend that it means you are superior?

42

Flowbark:

Thanks for posting that. It’s a different argument though. And it happens to be the one that I feel most guilty about in terms of my eating meat, because the environment is also one of my pet issues.

I can’t get a cite right now, but I know I’ve read many places that the cost of producing a pound of meat vs. a pound of grian for human consumption is amazing. The amount of water and land and pesticide and pollution and general mayhem produced by meat production is just astronomical. I have big problems with this.

Unfortunately, the healthiest and easiest way for me to eat is a high-protein diet, and while I would love to say I am enlightened and selfless enough to make all my decisions for myself based on my ethical beliefs, I am weak and lazy and selfish, and I often make decisions because they are the ones that work best for me personally. For me to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle it would require enormous reserves of will, and it would also mean that i would probably die alot sooner than I would like, given my metabolic processes. My body is much happier eating meat than wheat.

It is a small comfort to know that my own personal consumption makes no difference one way or another. It’s the old “What difference does my vote make?” deal…

Wait…OH NO! :eek:

43

Tell me why you kill Scylla. Why you spend the money on the all the equipment and deliberately plan and take the time out of your life to go and bring death to wild animals.

Is it an unpleasant experience for you? Do you weep as you watch the animal die? Are you sorry you killed it? Do you find it disturbing to skin and gut a still-warm animal?

I am sincerely stumped. I don’t get where you do something you are not enjoying…or if you are enjoying it, why you object to my saying so? Where’s the disconnect? (I am not being difficult, I mean it - I do not understand why you are objecting)

stoid

44

Well, no…both masturbation and prostitution are perfectly fine.

45

Stoid - do you enjoy eating that slab of dead animal flesh? Even though you know that the animal suffered? How can you enjoy eating meat? “Because you can?” “Because it tastes good?” If you cared more, you would not eat meat, or enjoy eating it.

46

Aynrandlover sez:

"There is nothing evil about killing an animal. There wasn’t then and there isn’t now. "

Yet makes no attempt to explain why that should be true. Many people disagree. Tell us why we are wrong.

So far, the only argument I’ve seen is “Because we can”, and the last time I checked, that was a piss-poor excuse for doing ANYTHING, much less killing.

Whether you agree with me or not, at least I have explained why I believe mistreating animals is wrong.

Also: some people are confusing the different arguments here. There are actually 2:

  1. Hunting is a disgusting practice and hardly worthy of being considered a “sport”, since sport implies amusement and entertainment, and why should killing animals be entertaining?

  2. Animals are deserving of our respect, honor and compassion and it is not our right to abuse, murder or mistreat them simply because we are able.

#1 Is being battled quite strongly, but I don’t see much in the way of philosophical, spiritual, metaphysical, moral or ethical arguments against #2.

Maybe there aren’t any?

stoid
PS: I also think boxing is sick. But at least boxers have some choice in the matter.

47

Ah, yes, the old “hunters are conservationists!” boogie. It’s got a decent beat and you can dance to it, but I only give it a 5.

Hunters don’t want all wildlife. They only want the sort of wildlife that they like to kill. And why exactly is it that there are no natural predators left, hmm? It’s obviously not because they starved to death if the damn place is in danger of becoming overpopulated, now is it? No, they eat a few sheep and must therefore die. Also, a wild cat makes a nice trophy, doesn’t it? Big bad hunter slays deadly wild animal!
bah.
stoid
**
[/QUOTE]

Stoid, you are so misinformed. We do work with the deer, elk, mountain goat and big horn sheep populations. But an equal if not greater amount of time and effort is dedicated to to promote the populations and habitats of burrowing owls, blue birds, sage grouse, turtles, hoary marmots and assorted flora and fauna.

Please provide some cites to back up you claims that hunters only care about game animals.

48

Stoid wrote:

You eat dead animals. Someone had to kill them. Why do you eat them? “Because you can”?

I am not here to defend hunting. I do not think it is OK for someone to get their rocks off in killing an animal, just for the sake of killing. But if someone wants to go in the outdoors, put up a campfire, smell the mountain air, and bring back some food (through the process of hunting) why is that any more terrible than going to Ralphs and picking up a package of meat? I can see the campfire/mountain air/campfire part of hunting as enjoyable, anyway. And since you don’t seem to think eating a dead animal is wrong, why do you care if someone goes out and gets their own meat? Why are they less righteous than you? You both put dead animal flesh on your plates. What makes you so much better than them?

But that is exactly what you are doing!! YOU EAT ANIMALS!!! How is that not “abuse” and “murder”? How is EATING an animal “respecting” them?!? Why do you spout all this BS out, when you fricking EAT animals? I don’t get this.

You say that you are too “lazy” to become vegetarian. So, you are responsible for the “murder” of animals. (You’ve heard that old crackpot veggie slogan, “Meat is murder”, haven’t you?) What makes you think you are exempt from “murder”, simply because you don’t go out and kill the animal yourself? You are just as responsible for the “murder” of the animals you eat.

49

Rights are a human construct which simply means power. The rapist has a right in his own mind to do what he wants because he has the power to do so. If he didn’t obviously he woulden’t do it. The right to do something does not include how ethical it is. You can say he had no right to do this but since you cannot stop him he does.

It is our right because each of us has the power to make our own decisions. Now if you had power over us im sure you would make us all live by your ethics but you don’t. It is our right because we can.

Animals like humans arent deserving of honor respect or compassion. A human or animal can be deserving of these things but as a whole neither of them are.

Do you think that animals would respect and honor us if they were suddenly 50 feet tall?:slight_smile:

The excuse “because I can” is not a excuse to do it but a excuse to have the right to do it. “Because I want/have to” is the excuse to do it and they are the best excuses of all.:slight_smile:

50

Stoid:

I enjoy restoring my '73 Buick. I do not enjoy wrestling all day with a stuck bolt. When I get the bolt off though, I may feel satisfaction that I have accomplished the job.

I have not yet shot at a deer with a bow because I have not yet felt that I had a good enough shot to harvest the animal properly. Merely wounding it would be unacceptable.

The pleasure I recieve is exactly the same as when I pick tomatos jalapenos, jabaneros and corn and green peppers that I grow in my own garden.

Why do I spend all day digging a garden, Burying compost, buying plants and seeds? Isn’t it cheaper and easier for me just to get them at a store?

They do taste better when I grow them myself. It’s worth it to me.

Is gardening about killing plants?

Yes, I am cognizant that I may cause suffering when I hunt if I act badly. I am afraid of missing or wounding when I fire. Afterwards I have felt some regret for the life of the animal that I have taken.

I felt the same whenever I killed one of our chickens for dinner (we raised some chickens when we moved to this farm, and yeah, they were free range. They taste a lot better when they are fresh.)

Dressing a deer bothers me no more than cutting a steak.

The actual killing is slightly unpleasant. The deer I shot just collapsed in place, and was completely dead by the time I walked the 20 yards to it. The one I hit with my car suffered. It was still alive when I went to retrieve it (I figured if the sonovabitch wrecked my car I might as well eat him.)

I wanted to put it out of its misery with a utility knife I keep in the car, but every time I approached it struggled wildly. I knew that if I tried any more, it might conceivably get up an run despite it’s condition, but if I left it alone, it would stop struggling and bleed out from internal injuries quicker. So, I watched it die for ten minutes or so. I regretted that death quite a bit, but I still enjoyed the meat.

The practice and skill necessary in hunting as well as the outdoor experience are foremost. The killing itself is a neutral act except for the satisfaction of having completed a difficult task well. The cleaning is also somewhat neutral. Telling the story is and eating the meat is great.

I also enjoy jogging which is arduous and difficult, sometimes painful from beginning to end. Would you assume that I’m a masochist?

I have known several people that despise hunting based on the principals you’ve stated.

None of them has taken me up on my offer to try it. I suggested that they could not judge an experience they hadn’t had. I said if they tried it with an open mind and still felt the same way afterwards their experience would lend more weight to their arguments, and stand a better chance of convincing others.

The usual response is “Go into the woods with a bunch of crazy murderers? Help murder? Are you nuts?”

::sigh::

If you tried it, maybe if you read a few hunting articles, or books, you might understand better.

Pick up “Whitetail” magazine. Read it through cover to cover, and tell me if that is a magazine focussed on murder.

I think you’ll find it’s focussed on Conservation, skill, and communing with nature.

Death is a necessary part of life, and I do not hide from it in the things I do. I give death no power by avoiding it. When I eat meat I buy in a store, I respect neither death nor life by doing so.

When I eat something I’ve harvested myself I feel that I’m respecting both, and I’m much more cognizant of my role on this planet, and the implications, consequences, responsibilities, joys, and sufferings that will inevitably occur because of it.

51

Well, Scylla, an excellent explanation of your experience of hunting.

And it still sounds to me like you are a man who enjoys killing things. Now, I did not say you were a sadisic bastard who gets his jollies from making things suffer. I said you were a man who enjoys killing things. To you, in your head, killing something is “Accomplishing a difficult task” something you have practiced your skills at accomplishing.

I like a sense of accomplishment, too. But I don’t need to kill something to get it. Of all the many ways you could feel close to nature, things you learn to do that require precision, strength, and intelligence, you chose the one where something ends up dead.

What is hunting?
Killing things.
What do you enjoy?
Hunting.
Ergo, you enjoy killing things.
What else do you enjoy?
Telling the story of how you killed the thing.

You do a good job of making it sound almost noble. But it still boils down to this: you don’t have to kill things. You choose to. You may not enjoy every single moment of it equally, you might find some small parts of it slightly unpleasant…but you still choose to do it.Must be because you like it.

And as for comparisons to gardening, I have gardened. The part that made it satisfying was creating and nurturing the LIFE of the plant, not the killing of it. In hunting you haven’t created or nurtured anything, you’ve just killed it. I don’t get why that would be satisfying.

No, I would never hunt. I couldn’t. I know this. I am such a friggin’ candyass I can’t kill when I SHOULD, when it is the kindest thing I could do. My mother had rats in her house which we thought were mice. They were getting into our food and leaving their poop everywhere. We foolishly set out mousetraps. Middle of the night, rat gets brained by a trap and wakes me up. I rush out and see the poor thing with its brains popping out of its eye socket, stumbling around and squealing in pain. Obviously, the kindest thing to do is to kill it as fast as I possibly can. Well, forget it. Couldn’t do it. Had to wake up the guy next door to come and kill it for me. (And before anyone goes there: I already said that I accept the killing of animals when necessary. Not only for food, but when the animals endanger me. Rats carry disease, and no, I will not let them live in my house. We eventually found out where they were coming in from and simply closed off the entrance, a preferable solution to killing them.)

So, in the end, Scylla, you are totally cool with hunting. To you, it is fun, it is a challenge, it makes you feel you’ve accomplished something. You like it. Good for you. That’s your right.

I think it’s repulsive and vile. And that’s my right.

stoid

52

Stoidela you said
At the other end of the spectrum, you have sadistic fucks that come up with completely insane and useless “experiments” to perform on animals, such as tying down a live and conscious pig and blowtorching it to see …well, shit, I have no idea WHAT they were trying to prove, actually. But I saw it with my own eyes, along with lots of other horrifying things

Please tell me who did this. I’ll kick their asses myself.

Outside of that I’m a hunter.

53

Stoid, I see you have very artfully ignored all my posts. But I’ll not give up yet!

And you eat dead animals, the product of MURDER (“meat is murder”, remember?) So you must enjoy it. You must enjoy eating the bits of dead animal muscle. You enjoy the product of MURDER. You choose to eat dead animals. You don’t have to eat animals. So why do you think you are “better” than Scylla?

But you’ll eat the product of animal murder, though. What’s the difference? That someone else did it for you? What makes you better?

So, in the end, Stoid, you are totally cool with eating the product of animal murder.

And I think you are even “worse” than Scylla (though I really am not pointing any fingers here.) Scylla is consistent in his meat-eating and hunting. He is not a hypocrite. He doesn’t think killing and eating animals is wrong, he has his moral code, and he seems to be sticking to it. You, however, are a hypocrite, as far as I can tell. You feel “guilty” that you aren’t vegetarian, but you are too “lazy” to become one. But you stil condemn other people for “murdering” animals, and for not treating animals with “respect”. But you still fricking eat animals yourself!!! And I guess I think your attitude is “repulsive and vile” for that, but I probably wouldn’t use such strong words. You eat dead animals, but condemn other people who do so, because they get the meat to their plate in a different way than you do.

54

Well, I don’t think they are doing it lately. God I hope not. The film is maybe…15 years old? I saw it quite a while back.

My memory is imperfect, but I think the military had something to do with it. It would be no shock to me if it’s true.

It was probably one of the most perfectly horrifying things I’ve ever witnessed. I was paralyzed with horror and rage that anyone could behave this way and not be locked up somewhere as a psycho.

There were lots of other things on the films, which was a compilation of animal experiments put together by an anti-vivisection group. One was film of a baboon with its head in some specially-designed torture device which basically crushed its skull, supposedly for the purpose of studying head injuries. The “scientists” performing the “experiment” actually laughed at the way the monkey writhed in spastic agony after having its head bashed it. What a crackup, eh?

And I’m supposed to believe that people are inherently, automatically, superior to animals? Not fuckkin’ likely, mate.

stoid

55

I have to disagree with this. Hunters make up the largest conservation lobby in this country. They spend more time and money preserving habitat than most people who call themselves environmentalists. Hunters take an active role in protecting the species that they hunt.

I am not a hunter, but my dad hunted when he was younger. He has more respect for life than almost anyone I’ve met. We’ve always had pets around the house and he shows them nothing but kindness and love. I know him, and I know he does not enjoy killing. So, Stoidela, I have to disagree with you when you say that all hunters enjoy killing because killing is what hunting is all about. The issue is much more complicated than you make it seem.

56

Still ignoring my posts, Stoid? You can’t keep it up forever, you know! :smiley:

57

Well, this proves the old adage that politics makes strange bedfellows, doesn’t it? :slight_smile:

stoid

58

How long are you going to ignore me, Stoid? It will become more and more obvious what you’re doing, you know.

This animal-loving, bleeding-heart vegetarian wants to know!

59

OK stoid
I’ll not comment further on a film you saw with your own eyes 15 years ago that you don’t remember well,and had something to do with the military you think.

60

I’m glad, since you seem to have such trouble understanding what I said about it.

stoid