# OK, the debt deal is apparently made. How will it affect 2012? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 1, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004 "2011-08-01T04:13:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/81 "2011-08-04T18:29:20Z")
How about we just bookmark this exchange and check back in September after the FAA fracas is done? Note that I’m fully aware the results either way won’t change your opinion of the principle parties. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/82 "2011-08-04T18:41:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Did you just claim the tax system is Marxist? That’s silly. It’s like claiming that some conservative policy is Fascist. There are no Marxists and no Fascists in American politics. So already you’ve lost a lot of credibility. > > However, I’ll address your other points. I understand how taxes work and I understand how costs get passed down. But now face reality. The costs of the deficit also get passed down. I think the economy as a whole does better under the temporary burden of higher taxes than it does under the ongoing burden of borrowing money. > > Fair Tax is a joke. It’s just another program to lower taxes for the people who are already paying a lower percentage than anyone else. There’s only two kinds of people who support the Fair Tax: millionaires and suckers. > > I mostly agree about spending. But you got the tense wrong. Spending isn’t a problem; spending was a problem. This is a debt we’re talking about. The money has already been spent and we can’t unspend it now. Now we have to act like grown-ups and pay back the money we borrowed. > > The good part is that if we pay off the debt, we can stop paying interest on borrowed money. Eliminating that interest will be a major cut in government spending all by itself. So you get a free headstart on cutting spending. Paragraph 1. You really don’t know that Karl Marx was the first one to propose a heavy, progressive income tax for the U.S.? Fair Tax. What is a joke about everyone paying their fair share? When about half of the population pays NO income tax, I fail to see how that is fair in any sense. What?? Spending WAS a problem? Didn’t we just raise the debt ceiling above that 14+ trillion so we can borrow more money? Are you saying we are NOT going to spend that? I know, you want to prime the pump with more “stmulus”. Tell me how well that worked last time. Also, the Democrats love to say that they are looking out for the little guy. Really? Who got the stimulus money last time? Did you? Nah!! I kinda wonder if most of you guys here are 30 or under? It looks like you need me here. Without my input you sound like a mutual admiration society.😉 ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/83 "2011-08-04T18:49:46Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > …When about half of the population pays NO income tax, I fail to see how that is fair in any sense Here we go again. That half only has about 2 and a half percent of the money. Look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/84 "2011-08-04T19:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > What?? Spending WAS a problem? Didn’t we just raise the debt ceiling above that 14+ trillion so we can borrow more money? Are you saying we are NOT going to spend that? I know, you want to prime the pump with more “stmulus”. Tell me how well that worked last time. Also, the Democrats love to say that they are looking out for the little guy. Really? Who got the stimulus money last time? Did you? Nah!! Well, the last time anyone managed to pass a reasonable stimulus, it got us out of the Great Depression. But if you’re upset about the stimulus not helping the little guy (i.e., not being progressive enough), blame the Republicans who wouldn’t let it. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/85 "2011-08-04T20:03:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, the last time anyone managed to pass a reasonable stimulus, it got us out of the Great Depression. But if you’re upset about the stimulus not helping the little guy (i.e., not being progressive enough), blame the Republicans who wouldn’t let it. Are you missing the point here, or just ignoring it? For the dollars we spent on stimulus last time, the govt. could have given us all a YEARS salary and have saved money! That is, unless you are grossly overpaid. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/86 "2011-08-04T20:17:26Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > Here we go again. That half only has about 2 and a half percent of the money. Look it up. You’re gonna have trouble finding out how much money the illegals and those gaming the welfare system (cheating) have, don’t you think? Let’s try something different. Which is more likely to produce an economic improvement? 1. Money in the government’s pocket? 2. Money in private pockets? The government will use its money for ONE purpose, grow government. If you LIKE big government, then you will be happy with that. Welcome to the USSA! What do YOU think rich people do with their money? You think they hide it in a mattress, bury it in the back yard, leave it in the bank @ 0.5%? They buy yachts, private jet planes, manisions? How many people do you think make their living building yachts, private jet planes, and mansions? But it goes a lot further. If you have REAL money, you have no choice other than to invest it. Either that, or watch it evaporate because of inflation. That means the rich have to buy businesses, start businesses, enlarge businesses, and that means they hire people, pay taxes on the profits, farm out some operations to smaller businesses and so on. So it all comes down to the question of whether your want bigger government, or a healthy economy with jobs and a reasonable level of prosperity for the working stiff. (Like you?) Be good to yourself. Vote conservative, whether D or R. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/87 "2011-08-04T20:21:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, the last time anyone managed to pass a reasonable stimulus, it got us out of the Great Depression. But if you’re upset about the stimulus not helping the little guy (i.e., not being progressive enough), blame the Republicans who wouldn’t let it. Bull chips! WW 2 got us out of the Great Depression. If forced industry to produce and gave it a market. The progressivism or ineptitude of Roosevelt PROLONGED the Great Depression for about 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/88 "2011-08-04T20:28:00Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Your plan: Raise taxes. I am in favor of stopping things like GE going off-shore and paying zero taxes, but get real. Do you really think there is enough money in the pockets of “the rich” to pay off the deficit? If you took it ALL, there wouldn’t be enough. To get enough taxes to pay off the deficit, you will have to raise taxes on EVERYONE. That will happen when the Bush tax cuts expire, and it still won’t do the job. > > What you don’t seem to get is that the tax structure is like a multi-strory building. When you add weight to the building, it doesn’t matter which floor you add it to. All the load is borne by the foundation, and that brother, is you! Do you think corporations actually pay taxes? It doesn’t matter if it is big oil, you pay the tax at the pump. Exxon just passes it on the the government. > > If you really want to improve the taxation situation, you should support the Fair Tax. Eliminate the progressive (Marxist) tax system we now have. The Fair Tax is applied on what you spend, not what you earn. The billionaire would pay his fair share on those yachts and private jets. Those who game the welfare system now would pay their fair share. Illegals working for cash under the table would pay their fair share. I believe the revenue would be greater than now, with less pain and confusion. Could you like a plan like that? The Tea Party does. > > The problem is not TAXES, the problem is SPENDING. Uncle Sam is a spendaholic, and needs therapy to get over it. We absolutely cannot continue to spend more than we take in. You CAN agree with that statement can’t you? I’m successfully convinced of your ignorance on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/89 "2011-08-04T20:31:32Z")
Admin wouldn’t let me edit my # 87 again, so I’ll repost here. Chronos, you say the Republicans wouldn’t let the stimulus help the little guy? Are you aware that at the time the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the White House were a ALL conttolled by the Democratic party? Remember? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/90 "2011-08-04T20:32:36Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > You’re gonna have trouble finding out how much money the illegals and those gaming the welfare system (cheating) have, don’t you think? > > Let’s try something different. Which is more likely to produce an economic improvement? > > 1. Money in the government’s pocket? > > 2. Money in private pockets? > > The government will use its money for ONE purpose, grow government. If you LIKE big government, then you will be happy with that. Welcome to the USSA! > > What do YOU think rich people do with their money? You think they hide it in a mattress, bury it in the back yard, leave it in the bank @ 0.5%? > > They buy yachts, private jet planes, manisions? How many people do you think make their living building yachts, private jet planes, and mansions? > > But it goes a lot further. If you have REAL money, you have no choice other than to invest it. Either that, or watch it evaporate because of inflation. That means the rich have to buy businesses, start businesses, enlarge businesses, and that means they hire people, pay taxes on the profits, farm out some operations to smaller businesses and so on. > > So it all comes down to the question of whether your want bigger government, or a healthy economy with jobs and a reasonable level of prosperity for the working stiff. (Like you?) > > Be good to yourself. Vote conservative, whether D or R. We have already been putting more and more money in the pockets of corporations and the wealthy.This has gone on since Ronald the Raygun. They are paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses. It has absolutely not produced jobs. If there was a thread of truth in that stupid meme, we would be ass deep in jobs. Profits are at all time highs. Unemployment is huge. You do nothing for demand when you enrich the already rich. Demand is what causes job production. That is more and more people buying things. We have had conservatives and Libertarians in power a long time. They have proved once and for all, that trickle down does not work. If you can’t get anything else from the economic mess we are in, learn that much. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/91 "2011-08-04T20:33:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m successfully convinced of your ignorance on the subject. Well, I will agree that ONE of us is surely wrong.😃 Seriously, don’t take pot shots. Refute statements if you can. Anybody can carp. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/92 "2011-08-04T20:46:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We have already been putting more and more money in the pockets of corporations and the wealthy.This has gone on since Ronald the Raygun. They are paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses. It has absolutely not produced jobs. If there was a thread of truth in that stupid meme, we would be ass deep in jobs. > Profits are at all time highs. Unemployment is huge. > You do nothing for demand when you enrich the already rich. Demand is what causes job production. That is more and more people buying things. > We have had conservatives and Libertarians in power a long time. They have proved once and for all, that trickle down does not work. If you can’t get anything else from the economic mess we are in, learn that much. Are you famaliar with the story of Henry Ford? When he got rich enough to build cars, he overpaid his employees (according to his detractors). He wanted people to have enough money to buy his cars. I agree that too many CEO’s are greedy, unprincipled slugs. Tell me again how much good the stimulus did for this country. Former presidents raised the debt ceiling again and again, but Obama has already piled up more debt than ALL his predecessors put together. Why would you want to sustain this trend? Roosevelt’s make-work policies didn’t work, it took wartime production, and perhaps, his death to break that cycle. The recent stimulus didn’t work either. Don’t have any other suggestions? How about buying into the revolutionary idea of NOT spending what we DON’T have? Parting shot. Were you better off under Reagan or now? Are you more optimistic now than you were 10 years ago? I didn’t think so! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/93 "2011-08-04T20:54:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We have had conservatives and Libertarians in power a long time. They have proved once and for all, that trickle down does not work. If you can’t get anything else from the economic mess we are in, learn that much. But they weren’t True Conservatives because they also gave away money to the elderly in addition to the rich. So until we have seniors eating dog food in the streets, we can’t have a real libertopia and be ass deep in jobs. ---
**Author:** ![galveston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/41988e/32.png) [@galveston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galveston)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/94 "2011-08-04T20:59:17Z")
Why do you libs not understand that as a nation we are in competition with places like China, India, and Korea, to name a few? Why are we losing jobs to these countries? Do you think our tax structure might have something to do with it? Just maybe companies, even smaller ones, see that if they are to compete in the world market, they MUST go where the government takes less of their profits in taxes. Statistically, most new jobs are created by smaller business. Many of them make above $250,000.00 annually, but many of them are single owner businesses where the owner files profits as personal income. Go ahead. Tax these people more, and see how many additional jobs they can create. Our country is not competitive in the world market, and Democrats have no plan to make it so. The election in 2012 SHOULD be about policy. I only hope that those who want bigger, more intrusive government are in the minority. BTW: You thought you were electing the first black president, didn’t you. SURPRISE! You elected the first TELEPROMPTER. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/95 "2011-08-04T21:35:32Z")
I seriously think I could propose a piece of legislation that puppies will be used as prison food and get the tea party people to support it if I gave it a sufficiently euphemistic name like “The American Values Act”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/96 "2011-08-04T21:46:25Z")
You squeeze so much right wing stupidity and talking memes in one post. Congratulations Rush. Our taxes are at the lowest level in 60 years. Corporations actually pay less than other industrialized countries. When we saved the ginormous big business banks from destroying the worlds economy, they were supposed to lend to small businesses to get the economy going. They did not. Do you know how little taxes the big corporations pay? The biggest corporations are so adept at tax evasion, that they pay near zero. Some get money back from us. They have been offshoring jobs for decades. The corporations are not and have not and will not create jobs here, no matter how low you make their taxes. The small businesses are the job producers. We should have taken over one of the failed banks and made them the small company lender. Then maybe jobs would have come. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/97 "2011-08-04T22:48:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s try something different. Which is more likely to produce an economic improvement? > > 1. Money in the government’s pocket? > > 2. Money in private pockets? Whichever one is more likely to take it out of their pocket. Which in this country, is overwhelmingly the government. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/98 "2011-08-05T00:13:34Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Why do you libs not understand that as a nation we are in competition with places like China, India, and Korea, to name a few? So you are saying we should be more like China? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/99 "2011-08-05T00:22:30Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Why do you libs not understand that as a nation we are in competition with places like China, India, and Korea, to name a few? > > Why are we losing jobs to these countries? Do you think our tax structure might have something to do with it? Just maybe companies, even smaller ones, see that if they are to compete in the world market, they MUST go where the government takes less of their profits in taxes. Nonsense. America has low taxes. Self destructively low. And taxes have little to do with where companies choose to go; any number of communities have discovered that when they slashed taxes for a company and it left or chose some other location anyway. Why are we losing jobs to them? Much lower wages, fewer restrictions on the abuse of employees, fewer safety and quality regulations. > [@galveston](#): > > Go ahead. Tax these people more, and see how many additional jobs they can create. They aren’t refraining from hiring people because of taxes; they are refraining from hiring people because the general public lacks the money to buy what they sell. Do you think businesses hire people for no reason? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004/100 "2011-08-05T01:01:08Z")
> [@galveston](#): > > Go ahead. Tax these people more, and see how many additional jobs they can create. Our country is not competitive in the world market So we lowered taxes and it didn’t create jobs. And the deficit went through the roof. And now we can’t compete with countries that have higher tax rates. Some people might conclude that lowering taxes was a mistake. Once again reality showing its liberal bias. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-the-debt-deal-is-apparently-made-how-will-it-affect-2012/591004.md?page=6)