# OK, this time I nearly screamed 'CITE?!" in church **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 16, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841 "2003-03-16T21:16:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/1 "2003-03-16T21:16:24Z")
In the middle of the sermon, to be precise… usually I find it fascinating and applicable, rarely boring and irrelevant. But today it was pretty much a study in non-sequitur, logical fallacy and general crooked thinking. The bit where I nearly demanded a cite was “This is true; I heard about a school where they have banned hot cross buns because they are overtly Christian”, but there was quite an assortment of other gems, such as: “I’ve decided to utterly believe the whole of this [waving a Bible] until such time as someone can prove it wrong in any way, people have tried to prove it wrong to me and I’ll admit I didn’t always have the answers; there are a million things I don’t understand and in any case, these critics are mostly not worth listening to… anyway, it can only either be entirely true or entirely false.” Grrrrrrr… ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/2 "2003-03-16T21:22:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > The bit where I nearly demanded a cite was “This is true; I heard about a school where they have banned hot cross buns because they are overtly Christian.”_\* Ahh, Christian rumors . . . gotta love them. My grandma, an avid church-goer always shares the latest with me. My favorites were the story about the little girl who was expelled from school for praying before lunch, and the Clinton administration’s attempts to “take over” by bringing a million Red Chinese over here and hiding them in box cars. “But, my preacher wouldn’t lie to us! He’s a man of God!” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/3 "2003-03-16T21:29:00Z")
“And if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, by Gawd, it’s good enough for everyone!” ---
**Author:** ![mblackwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@mblackwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mblackwell)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/4 "2003-03-16T22:02:33Z")
[http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/16/nbuns16.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/16/ixhome.html](http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/16/nbuns16.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/16/ixhome.html) I don’t know if the Telegraph is a reliable paper or not, but it looks like iit is sort of true. ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/5 "2003-03-16T22:07:26Z")
And isn’t it time we got rid of those plus-signs? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/6 "2003-03-16T22:13:07Z")
Fair enough, but it would only really be a story if they banned hot cross buns but still served up (at some time or other) some sort of food that carries specific symbolism for some other faith, which I really doubt would happen - the story was presented as being specifically oppressive toward Christianity; “Look!, they want to ban Christianity and only Christianity” is the message and even the Telegraph seems to succumb to this in a small way: > [@](#): > > Despite this ruling, the council confirmed that it will continue to organise special menus to celebrate events as diverse as the Chinese New Year, Italian National Day and Russian Independence Day. But of course these are national, not religious festivals - banning hot cross buns, however sensible or silly, is someone’s idea of separating religious bias from education, not picking on a specific religion. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/7 "2003-03-16T22:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mblackwell \* > \*\*[http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/16/nbuns16.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/16/ixhome.html](http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/16/nbuns16.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/16/ixhome.html) > > I don’t know if the Telegraph is a reliable paper or not, but it looks like iit is sort of true. \*\* Heh… I ought to start a thread called “Ask the Brit”. The _Daily Telegraph_ is right of centre, but it’s by no means “trash press” - it likes to consider itself a quality paper. I’ve heard a little treatise about the target readership of the various English national dailies, in terms of who runs the country and how: "… the _Daily Express_ is read by the men who think the country ought to be run the way it used to be run; "The _Daily Telegraph_ is read by the men who think it still is.\* Slightly old-fogey-ish, retired-colonel, Disgusted-of-Tonbridge-Wells kind of thing. There was another story lately about a school banning the “Three Little Pigs” story in case it upset the Moslems - which even the Moslems thought was extremely silly. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/8 "2003-03-16T22:20:30Z")
Fuck fuck fuckity-fuck fuck fuck. Preview Is My Friend :smack: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/9 "2003-03-16T22:43:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > “But, my preacher wouldn’t lie to us! He’s a man of God!” And few of them would, deliberately. But all too many of them seem to check their skepticism at the door when it comes to what they hear through the Christian grapevine, so last week’s pseudo-Christian glurge frequently winds up being part of this Sunday’s sermon. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/10 "2003-03-16T22:57:58Z")
There seems to be an inherent tendency for Christians (maybe just people generally) to believe glurge; one time I was asked to lead a discussion and I decided to put the cat among the pigeons and talk about ‘truth vs fact’ - selecting [this](http://www.snopes.com/glurge/kyle.htm) bit of glurge to demonstrate that a story does not need to be factually correct to serve the purposes of delivering a moral message and initiating thoughtful behaviour. The whole thing got off to a very shaky start and almost backfired because even though I was the one bringing the glurge to them, _I was unable to convince them that it was not a true story_ - honestly, they came up with every possible explanation as to why I could very eaisly be wrong and that there probably _was_ a guy out there called Kyle to whom all these things had happened. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/11 "2003-03-16T23:44:59Z")
Malacandra: I’ve seen a similar list involving American newspapers. Tell me how your list goes, and I’ll tell you how ours goes. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/12 "2003-03-16T23:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malacandra \* > \*\*Heh… I ought to start a thread called “Ask the Brit”. The _Daily Telegraph_ is right of centre, but it’s by no means “trash press” - it likes to consider itself a quality paper. I’ve heard a little treatise about the target readership of the various English national dailies, in terms of who runs the country and how: > > "… the _Daily Express_ is read by the men who think the country ought to be run the way it used to be run; > "The _Daily Telegraph_ is read by the men who think it still is.\* > > Slightly old-fogey-ish, retired-colonel, Disgusted-of-Tonbridge-Wells kind of thing. > > There was another story lately about a school banning the “Three Little Pigs” story in case it upset the Moslems - which even the Moslems thought was extremely silly. \*\* In my opinion from reading the _Telegraph_, it seems to be aligned about the same as the _Chicago Tribune_. Then again, in my experience, the _London Times_ can be pretty conservative at times as well. I only read the _NY Post_ for their terrific headlines and the _Sun_ for the boobies (hey, doesn’t everybody?) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/13 "2003-03-17T00:52:51Z")
You could always go up to the minister afterwards, all wide-eyed, and ask what school banned the hot cross buns, because you are shocked and indignant and want to write in protest. Good luck. It’s always amazing how many people will advance various improbable and outright crack-brained scenarios, and when challenged for evidence (of miracles, alien abductions, The Jewish Conspiracy™) will say “Prove me wrong!!!”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/14 "2003-03-17T01:07:34Z")
Obviously The Jewish Conspiracy™ is out to screw up the coding of anyone who dares reveal its existence. Oh, the perfidy. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/15 "2003-03-17T02:19:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*And few of them would, [lie] deliberately. > > But all too many of them seem to check their skepticism at the door when it comes to what they hear through the Christian grapevine, so last week’s pseudo-Christian glurge frequently winds up being part of this Sunday’s sermon. \*\* I once went to church a few times with a friend. The pastor gave a long sermon based on a particular scripture. After the service, my friend asked me how I had liked it. “Well,” I said, “I might have liked it more if he based his sermons on scriptures which are actually in the Bible.” My friend was outraged and insisted that it was. I reminded her that I had gone to Christian school, and knew the Bible pretty much inside-and-out. She fumbled through the book looking for it, but after several tense minutes, admitted defeat, but insisted I ask the pastor where it was. We went up to him, and she told him in amused tones what I had said. He looked at me strangely, and I asked him politely if he could please tell me where to find the passage as I would like to study it more deeply at home. Instead of answering the question, he basically rephrased the sermon, going into great detail of what each phrase meant. Every time I would ask him where to find it, he smoothly slipped into another explanation. He never did give me a straight answer, finally saying that he had to leave, but he’d love to see me come back next Sunday. Bloody unlikely, I thought. Later, in the car, my friend asked me if all of my “doubts” had been cleared up. I stared at her dumbfounded. Had she heard the same conversation? I again insisted that it was not in the Bible. When we arrived at her house, she spent what seemed like hours going through concordances, Bible study manuals, and even using an electronic Bible Word Search. “It’s here,” she insisted, “I just can’t find it.” I told her I was going home, and to give me a call when she did. I never heard from her, and the next time I saw her, all she did was give me a hostile look and turn her back so she wouldn’t have to speak to me. Last I heard, she’s still a member of that church. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/16 "2003-03-17T02:42:51Z")
My BIL’s mom use to be an evangelical minister. I would attend services for the holidays and that was about all I could handle. One Easter, she was talking about how their church ( not in the best section of town ) was donating this and that for some poor mission in Africa . They had raised enough money to buy an incubator for all ‘these babies that have aids which have proven to cure them’. I looked over at my BIL and said, " Don’t you think the Center for Disease Control would be interested in those incubator?" Even my BIL winced at his mom’s gaff. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/17 "2003-03-17T02:52:15Z")
“Why, just last month, over in Springfield, three little girls were hit by a car and killed, all because the _atheists_ in the school board decided to remove all the _cross_ walks from the grounds!” ---
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/18 "2003-03-17T03:12:54Z")
What’s a BIL? One hesitates to ask, as a non-believer, Mangetout, but still… Do you plan to keep going after this experience? Do you find that the pastor’s opinions are generally worth paying attention to, even if the sources behind them aren’t so trustworthy (or misconstrued as they seem to have been here)? RE: the article behind the statement. In my town, which used to be mainly Catholic, Santa used to come into the public schools. Would your pastor be offended by the decision to stop this? I’m agnostic (ouch) on the question of whether hot cross buns would bug me, but Santa is way over the line. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/19 "2003-03-17T03:25:54Z")
\*\* Miller, \*\* BIL = Brother in Law ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2003, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841/20 "2003-03-17T08:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nogginhead \* > \*\*What’s a BIL? > > One hesitates to ask, as a non-believer, Mangetout, but still… > > Do you plan to keep going after this experience? Do you find that the pastor’s opinions are generally worth paying attention to, even if the sources behind them aren’t so trustworthy (or misconstrued as they seem to have been here)?\*\* The guy was a visiting speaker; we have one minister serving a circuit of seven churches, so about six weeks out of seven, then preaching is provided by local preachers, members of the lay leadership, etc… Usually it is pretty sound. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-this-time-i-nearly-screamed-cite-in-church/161841.md?page=2)