# Ok, what can we do to win hearts and minds in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340 "2004-08-31T01:19:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/21 "2004-08-31T16:24:34Z")
> [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > Nothing. > > Like the majority of the world outside the US, Iraq hates you Seppos. And all have good reason to hate. You Seppos have exploited and plundered the remainder of the world since WW II and are doing it in Iraq. Vested self-interest keeps the US troops there and there is no attempt, other than shallow attempts at positive Yank propaganda, to win minds and hearts, only oil. > [@MEBuckner](#): > > Moderator’s Note: Sisyphus’ Stone, you have been warned about slinging around insults and slurs outside the BBQ Pit at least twice; and you have warned specifically about using the term “Seppos” in Great Debates. > > If you don’t stop it, your posting privileges on the SDMB will be revoked. 😕 What is a “Seppo”? I can’t find it in any online slang dictionary. It seems to be a common personal name in Finland. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/22 "2004-08-31T17:36:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What is a “Seppo”? I can’t find it in any online slang dictionary. It seems to be a common personal name in Finland. It’s a shortened version of a derogatory term for Americans, sometimes used in a friendly way, sometimes not. (Depends on the speaker.) Septic tank = full of shit, yank rhymes with tank, yielding septic yank… ‘Seppo’ is just infusing it with a little more of a colloquial (and in this case dismissive) tone. I don’t know if seppo is actively used, though, or if it’s just S.Stone’s own cool little variant. But since he proudly conducts drive-by postings without ever bothering to check for responses we may not ever find out in this thread. 🙂 EZ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/23 "2004-08-31T20:13:31Z")
Let’s raise their rent! ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/24 "2004-08-31T23:35:17Z")
> [@ElectricZ](#): > > Septic tank = full of shit, yank rhymes with tank, yielding septic yank… ‘Seppo’ is just infusing it with a little more of a colloquial (and in this case dismissive) tone. I don’t know if seppo is actively used, though, or if it’s just S.Stone’s own cool little variant. But since he proudly conducts drive-by postings without ever bothering to check for responses we may not ever find out in this thread. Fairly common over here and pretty much always used in jest since it’s too lame to be a real insult. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/25 "2004-08-31T23:50:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let’s raise their rent! Done. I took the liberty of adding a not too dear loo fee. ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/26 "2004-09-01T00:20:15Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Pretty short of leaving the Iraqis in a security nightmare to make them completely happy, I was wondering what the Coalition can do to bridge the divide between us and the Iraqi communities. Is what we did in Najaf a sign of the Interim and US governments weakness and a moral victory for Sadr, or was it a sign to the Iraqs that we are showing restraint and being respectful? > > What would you do to rebuild the trust and respect, and help the Iraqis onto democratic government with out so much hate and violence? The whole thing seems impossible, but without doubt the best single thing regarding the above question is for Americans to not vote for Bush in the coming election. It probably won’t make much difference, but I am sure it will help a little. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/27 "2004-09-01T00:46:16Z")
Look at it this way. Should we make Iraqis realize that living in a stable, prosperous democracy is the best way of life? A useless question, because we can’t do that. The Shi’ite majority supports Sistani, a man who believes in implementing Islamic law, not in deomcratic government. So given the choice they would elect Sistani, and then support him when he tried to knock down democratic institutions and give himself absolute power. To counter this, we tried to cook the system in such a way, that the Shi’ites, about 60% of the population, would not be able to take power. But the Shi’ites will not accept any plan that doesn’t put them in power. And the Sunni will not allow themselves to be controlled by the Shi’ites. And the Kurds will not allow themselves to be controlled by the other two. The only solution is to split the country into three new countries. The Kurd country will be guarded by American troops (or UN troops) indefinitely to protect it from Turkish invasion. The other two will be allowed to choose whatever government they wish, and all foreign troops would leave immediately. (According to the latest polls, this is what those two ethnic groups want.) Not going to happen, of course, but that would work better than any other solution. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/28 "2004-09-01T01:24:14Z")
What if we send Iraq one George W. Bush? They could either elect him President or Dictator for Life. Or tie him to Saddam’s fallen statue and hurl rotten eggs at him for days on end. Or cast him in a starring role in _Abu Ghraib: The Sequel_. Whatever floats their reed-raft, ya know? ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/29 "2004-09-01T01:31:55Z")
> [@WoodCM](#): > > The whole thing seems impossible, but without doubt the best single thing regarding the above question is for Americans to not vote for Bush in the coming election. It probably won’t make much difference, but I am sure it will help a little. I realise I am making a habit of adding directly to my own posts, but the other thing we can do to help this, is to stop using the unbelievably-rubbish phrase ‘weapons off mass destruction’, when thousands and thousands of Iraqies have been killed by weapons not classed as so. It will help a great deal if those politicians-in-charge apologise for ever using this word. Now I am being naive! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/30 "2004-09-01T01:37:17Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > Should we make Iraqis realize that living in a stable, prosperous democracy is the best way of life? A useless question, because we can’t do that. True, relization comes from within. There’s reason to believe that some in the arab world are more enamored of democratic ideals than some Americans > [@ITR champion](#): > > The Shi’ite majority supports Sistani, a man who believes in implementing Islamic law, not in deomcratic government. Last iheard, he was in favor of democratic reforms. Maybe I’m wrong. Do you have a citation for this claim? > [@ITR champion](#): > > So given the choice they would elect Sistani, and then support him when he tried to knock down democratic institutions and give himself absolute power. This is diametrically opposed to the current information that I’ve seen. Could you provide the basis for this assertion so that I may peruse it myself? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/31 "2004-09-01T01:40:30Z")
Interestingly enough, according to the UN’s Arab Human Development Report from 2003 (p19), the view that democracy is the best form of government and a dislike for autocracies are more widely held in the Arab countries than in the US/Can/Aus/NZ. (Yes, I know that Iran is not an Arab country. But in the category of, “Democracy is the best form of government,” the group called “Other Islamic” countries also ranked higher than the US/Can/Aus/NZ) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/32 "2004-09-01T02:12:36Z")
I have no idea what al-Sistani thinks, what little I can glean about him gives me a cipher wrapped in an enigma. And one hastens to point out - the Shia damn sure ought to be wildly democratic, they’ve got the whip hand. They regard the “majority rules” provision of democracy as a perfectly splendid idea. I suppose that they might be willing to hear arguments to the effect that the Kurdish minority ought to be content to hand up the autonomy they’ve struggled for years to obtain into the benign hands of the Shia majority. Yes, I suspect they might be willing to be persuaded. They might not look too harshly on a proposal to absorb Kurdistan into Greater Iraq, and absorb Kurdistan’s oil revenues into the general fund, and have that fund doled out according to the democratic will of the majority. That shouldn’t be too hard a case to make. My point, and I insist that I have one, is that all this talk about democracy completely misses the point. The Iraqis don’t hate democracy, they don’t hate freedom, they don’t hate CD’s and Starbucks. They hate _us_! They don’t want us there, they don’t want to _have_ to listen to us, thank you for removing Hussein, now fucko off! Our blubbering and lachrymose committment to democracy is a crock, it is an utter sham, they know it even if we don’t. We are bullshitting. Prove it? OK, ask yourself this: if all indications were that a free and fair election in Iraq would elect a theocratic, anti-Israel, anti-American regime…do you _really_ believe we would permit such an election to go forward? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/33 "2004-09-01T05:34:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Pretty short of leaving the Iraqis in a security nightmare to make them completely\*\* happy\*\*, I was wondering what the Coalition can do to bridge the divide between us and the Iraqi communities. Is what we did in Najaf a sign of the Interim and US governments weakness and a moral victory for Sadr, or was it a sign to the Iraqs that we are showing restraint and being respectful? > > What would you do to rebuild the\*\* trust and respect\*\*, and help the Iraqis onto democratic government with out so much hate and violence? Sorry , I see a contradiction here. At the moment the States are not gonna make the Iraqi’s happy , but trusted and respected are attainable. Declan ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/34 "2004-09-01T11:43:28Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > Look at it this way. > > The Shi’ite majority supports Sistani, a man who believes in implementing Islamic law, not in deomcratic government. So given the choice they would elect Sistani, and then support him when he tried to knock down democratic institutions and give himself absolute power. Actually…Sistani’s views are rather moderate. He believes that religion is to be an influence on your life, and your life then influences your politics. It’s strikingly moderate, and far more moderate than Sadr’s way of thinking. Sistani does not like interfering with non-religious matters at all. What complicates things is that he does not feel Americans are doing a good job with Sadr or security problems, many of which are caused by Sadr. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/35 "2004-09-01T11:49:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They hate _us_! They don’t want us there, they don’t want to _have_ to listen to us, thank you for removing Hussein, now fucko off! > > Prove it? OK, ask yourself this: if all indications were that a free and fair election in Iraq would elect a theocratic, anti-Israel, anti-American regime…do you _really_ believe we would permit such an election to go forward? Um, elucidator, this is just not true. In some parts of the country there is in fact a great deal of tension between the soldiers and the population. But in fact in lots of areas of the country, they just love us. I’ve met and spoken to hundreds of Iraqis, and they’re the nicest people you’d ever want to meet. Sadr has replaced Hussein, however, as a feared figure. He’s preying on people who don’t meet his precise standards, though, and they’re aware of it. He’s using Saddam’s methods. Sure, some Iraqis might be bullshitting because they want our money or something, but I’ve seen far too many of them who risk their lives to help us to be that cynical. It’s not black and white in Iraq, and people seem to forget that different regions of the country have different viewpoints. And within those regions are lots of individuals, most of whom are basically decent people. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/36 "2004-09-01T11:52:21Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > The first step is to admit it. Come right out, and _admit_ it: > > Iraq was **not** invaded because it was a nuclear, chemical or biological threat. > Iraq was **not** invaded because it was linked to al Qaeda. > Iraq was **not** invaded because it had an inhumane and dictatorial regime. > > If these _were_ the case, other countries would have been invaded first. > **Iraq was invaded in order to get the President re-elected.** > > Had he not “done something” after September 2001, had he not served the US electorate with a “victory”, re-election would have been out of the question. (Why _Iraq_ specifically? [Here’s why](http://cryptome.org/rad.htm).) > Admit it. What does this have to do with rebuilding Iraq, exactly? Much less hearts and minds? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/37 "2004-09-01T11:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > What does this have to do with rebuilding Iraq, exactly? Much less hearts and minds? Honesty rebuilds _trust_, which is far easier to knock down, far more difficult to build again, and far more important than any physical structure. If the population do not _believe_ what their occupiers _say_, their hearts and minds are locked forever. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/38 "2004-09-01T12:17:53Z")
Rarely I have seen a more interesting question meet with so few thoughtful answers here at SDMB. I have come to expect better of us here. In any case, we (Americans) are now involved in this part of the world for the long-term. I would propose no quick solutions, but some long-term ones: 1. Let American universities extend a large number os scholarships to Iraqi high school students and undergrads. Keep it up for about fifty years. Develop some sort of program to encourage Americans to study in Iraq. Don’t forget to get Iraqi cadets into West Point. 2. Encourage American companies to move their Middle-Eastern operations to Iraq. We should have had a Coca-Cola bottling plant in our combat trains. Jobs, investment and cultural exchange. 3. Start sorting out land claims in Iraq. Nothing like clear title to land to calm people down. (Remember how you felt when you signed your first mortgage?) 4. Start rebuilding the Iraqi military. Remarkably, the Iraqis are a militant people, other Arabs call them ‘our Prussians.’ A military is a source of jobs and great pride for them. 5. A massive environmental recovery program. Not that I care too much about the environment, but another source of jobs and a way to keep idle hands out of trouble. Still, a tough job, and one we have been bungling. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/39 "2004-09-01T12:26:49Z")
I may have mentioned this before. The US armed forces are not designed or trained to win the hearts and minds of a hostile populace. Killing soldiers and dropping bombs on things, they’re really good at. Delivering a message of hope and peace…uh…no. I say we leave that to the professionals. We have in America an awesome machine capable of shaping public sentiment and _weltanschauung_ in the form of our movie, television and advertising industries. I say we send them. A one-hour weekly drama show (a la “The West Wing”) or a soap-opera format would be the perfect vehicle to get the message out. Admit it: you can already see the characters and story-lines develop in your head. The raw recruit, battling his own fears as he tries to prove himself worthy in the face of conflicting orders. The crusty (but lovable) Colonel, facing a two-front war with a hostile populace and the chairbound Generals in Washington. The hot-blooded Iraqi firebrand who is ultimately driven to his death by his love for his people and country. The star-crossed love affair between the young Iraqi pre-med student and the Sargeant (who will, in episode 14, kill her brother in a tragic case of mistaken identity). In all seriousness, you could put a face on the Americans that the locals won’t get on Al-Jazeera and at the least, get everyone off the streets for an hour or so a week. Plus, you could sell advertising time to offset the cost of the war!! ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340/40 "2004-09-01T13:27:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > … rebuild the trust and respect… > [@Declan](#): > > …trusted and respected are attainable. > > Declan Eh? When has America or Britain been trusted and respected in Iraq or that region generally? Or done anything to earn it? The history of US and UK actions in Iraq isn’t pretty. George II isn’t the only one whose little fibs have cost Iraq lives - George I got hundreds of thousands to put their heads above the parapet when he asked them to rise up “for freedom and apple-pie” or whatever. He then stood by and watched those heads get chopped off. Pre Gulf I support for Saddam didn’t help (at least among the Shia and Kurds) The earlier history of diddling in the region, indeed the formation of Iraq itself, leave no room for trust and respect either. Remember - it was “Shock and Awe” not “Trust and Respect” that the bombs were supposed to instil in the Iraqis, the result has been more Fear and Loathing [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-what-can-we-do-to-win-hearts-and-minds-in-iraq/262340.md?page=3)