# OK, what's the final word on the use of apostrophes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2002, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568 "2002-07-18T07:15:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/21 "2002-07-19T00:11:51Z")
Thanks once again to everyone who patiently pointed out that the apostrophe never belongs in the possessive _its_. That is the most irritating pebble in the shoe of my mind. And so many people perpetrate it! > [@](#): > > I see the lone apostrophe as a sort of speed bump, a typographical convention that doesn’t match the way we speak (we say, out loud, “Bridget Joneses Diary”) and that adds a microsecond of interpretation to the reading experience. Excellent call, **Gervaise** , it couldn’t have been expressed better. It’s like the (now, thankfully, obsolete) typographical convention, once followed by the _New York Times_, of abbreviating _Mac_- or _Mc-_ in headlines as M’. An actual example from World War II: “M’ARTHUR RETURNS.” A mental speed bump is exactly what that is. You have to remind yourself the general’s name was really Macarthur. I always use 's follwing final s because I pronounce it that way. Not everyone does. On David Byrne and Brian Eno’s album _My Life in the Bush of Ghosts_ there is a piece titled “The Jezebel Spirit” in which a holy roller preacher performs an exorcism. He says: “_Out! In Jesus name._” Just like that. “In Jesus name.” Not “In Jesus’s name.” I dislike this type of preacher and hearing this was an incentive not to speak like him. I had always pronounced the possessive s after final -s anyway. It just feels right to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/22 "2002-07-19T00:19:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > \*\*It’s been many years since I took English, but **it’s** is _not_ always a contraction for “it is”. 😃 \*\* Shoulda known some wiseacre – er, what, a mod? – I mean, some erudite individual would come along and pick this nit. Yeah, yeah. “It’s” = “it is” or “it has,” and _ **NOTHING ELSE.** _ Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/23 "2002-07-19T00:46:55Z")
Also apostrophes can be used in place of a letter or letters: she said "those wings are kickin’ " (a response to someone eating (or eatin’ ) some bufflo chicken wings) ---
**Author:** ![nineiron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e56c9b/32.png) [@nineiron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nineiron)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/24 "2002-07-19T03:15:52Z")
Another person chiming in on the necessity for the final _s_ after the apostrophe for a possessive noun that already ends in _s_. Here’s why (play along): **Jesus’** – Hmm. By one style (not “rule,” as someone has pointed out), this could mean either a.) “belonging to Jesus” or b.) "belonging to two or more guys named “Jesu” [pluralize “Jesu” to “Jesus” and then add the apostrophe] **Jesus’s** – Can only mean one thing: “belonging to Jesus.” Take the singular noun and add an apostrophe and an _s_. No possible misunderstanding. I know, there’s no one named Jesu (that I know of), but the example works for my students. It works better, I suppose, when you use a pair of words like “John” and “Johns” (which I have seen as a family name, by the way). Then you’d have to wonder if _Johns’_ referred to two guys with the first name John, or one guy with the last name Johns. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/25 "2002-07-19T07:46:29Z")
I hate when someone asks for the final word on a subject and we don’t give it to them. Here’s my attempt at a summary of everything we learned in this thread:[ul][_] **its vs. it’s** : Just remember, its is a possessive pronoun, and it’s is a contraction. If and only if you can replace the word with it is or it has, use an apostrophe.[_] **Names ending in _s_** : Matter of style, not grammar. The majority of people and style guides say to add an _s_ after the apostrophe, but there are exceptions to both cases. As with all style rules, whatever you do, be consistent. **Pluralization** : You never use an apostrophe when pluralizing a regular word, like _blob_. However, for shorter words, it’s a matter of style once again. You should be able to get away with using an apostrophe when forming the plurals of single letters, numbers, and abbreviations, in that order. (_ie_, _k’s_ is more likely to be accepted than _70’s_, which is more likely to be accepted than _PhD’s_.) I suggest using these only when it will help the sentence be more easily read, but be consistent.[/ul]Did I miss anything? ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/26 "2002-07-19T10:07:59Z")
Clear up something for me, willya? A ball that belongs to both Bill and Ted was deflated when I jammed a nail into it. So: “Bill’s and Ted’s ball was deflated when I jammed a nail into it.”, or “Bill and Ted’s ball was deflated when I jammed a nail into it.”? I think the latter one is correct, but I’m not absolutely sure. I know they went over this in elementary school, but for some reason the lesson never stuck. Which is correct? ---
**Author:** ![nineiron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e56c9b/32.png) [@nineiron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nineiron)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/27 "2002-07-19T11:19:20Z")
Since it was shared ownership, it’s “Bill and Ted’s ball.” If it were separate ownership, it’d be “Bill’s and Ted’s balls.” Hee hee. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/28 "2002-07-19T11:39:00Z")
This may just be style, but according to my copy of _Fowler’s Modern English Usage_, the Jesus conundrum is answered thus: You do the hanging apostrophe if the final syllable begins and ends in the letter **S**. Thus: **Jesus’ miracles** , but **James’s cat**. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/29 "2002-07-21T06:03:27Z")
Thank you, **nineiron**! ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/30 "2002-07-21T13:14:01Z")
I haven’t read all of the above, so I may be repeating, but here is the rule I use. It is not in any grammar book, but it is reasonably clear. To pluralize an uppercase acronym, I use a lowercase s (I started to put it in quotes, but that gets too confusing, so I will refrain); for a lowercase acronym, I use 's and damn the grammar books. For a number I am probably inconsistent, but I think that 70s is better than 70’s. Now for nouns, especially proper nouns, that end with a sibilant (s or x, the latter being equivalent to ks), I once heard a strange rule from an English professor whose three syllable name ended in s: when the name has an odd number of syllables, just add an apostrophe, but with an even number, add 's for the possessive. I think you should follow the pronunciation which usually adds 's for all possessive. But if you find an exception, just add an apostrophe. On the other hand, I add only an apostrophe to an s plural, since that is how I usually say it. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/31 "2002-07-21T14:57:29Z")
I was taught to use “Bill’s and Ted’s ball was deflated when I jammed a nail into it.” since if there were several balls “Bill and Ted’s balls were deflated when I jammed a nail into each of them.” could mean ‘I jammed a nail into each of Ted’s Balls and into Bill, and they were all deflated.’ ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/32 "2002-07-21T15:29:15Z")
I believe that what is most important is consistency. Always use James’ ball and Mr. Jones’ ball or always use James’s ball and Mr. Jones’s ball. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/33 "2002-07-21T15:46:21Z")
**Shade** , “Bill’s and Ted’s balls” may be clearer, but it is an awkward mess of a phrase, difficult to pronounce. In a case like this, shouldn’t the really correct solution be to state it as “I deflated the boys’ balls” or “I deflated the balls belonging to Bill and Ted” or “Bill and Ted were upset when I deflated their balls”? And I think that the apostrophe move to indicate the plural can be invaluable- “The boy’s ball” can easily be distinguished from “the boys’ ball.” I am really uncomfortable with deflating all the balls of these poor guys. I just do not have it in me to be a proper dominatrix. ---
**Author:** ![Michele\_in\_SoCal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Michele\_in\_SoCal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michele_in_SoCal)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/34 "2002-07-21T17:01:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hari Seldon \* > \*\*… I think that 70s is better than 70’s. … \*\* Hmmmm… I always write it **'70s** with the apostrophe in front because that is where the missing missing characters (digits/letters) would be. ---
**Author:** ![Michele\_in\_SoCal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Michele\_in\_SoCal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michele_in_SoCal)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/35 "2002-07-21T17:03:00Z")
(oops, didn’t preview after I changed my sentence a little!) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/36 "2002-07-21T19:21:49Z")
The Little, Brown Handbook, whose diktat I’ve memorized in this regard, specifies that the only circumstance in which you use an apostrophe to make a plural is with letters: mind your p’s and q’s. ---
**Author:** ![tangirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@tangirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tangirl)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/37 "2002-07-21T21:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michele in SoCal \* > \*\* > > Hmmmm… > > I always write it **'70s** with the apostrophe in front because that is where the missing missing characters (digits/letters) would be. \*\* Hi there - I’ve only visited and posted a few times, but I agree with you Michelle on this one. Actually the question came up when a friend and I were talking about That '80s Show premiering. I was always taught to write '80 and the 1980’s, but '80’s definitely didn’t look right, so I did a little research (love being a govt. employee! 😉 ) - it’s '80s. A lot of the other stuff that is being debated is based on style as someone else pointed out. I hate the way Jones’s looks and I never pronounced it as “Jones’s.” Sorry Mr. Jones. 😉 Anyone have a link showing the proper pronunciation? And I finally just learned about 3 months ago how to keep it’s and its straight - like others have pointed out, its is a posessive pronoun like hers and his. Thanks! I love this site - [http://www.referencedesk.org/](http://www.referencedesk.org/) and I always refer to [this link](http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/%7Ejlynch/Writing/) (from that site) when I have a question. ---
**Author:** ![tangirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@tangirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tangirl)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/38 "2002-07-21T21:55:29Z")
hmm. That’s odd, I can’t edit. I noticed a couple punctuation errors - please don’t flame - lol - of all the places to have punctuation errors - in the middle of a punctuation debate. 😉 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/39 "2002-07-22T00:54:05Z")
**Michele in SoCal** and **tangirl** , the previous example involving _70’s_ was not referring to a decade. It was referring to more than one instance of the number 70. Perhaps a clearer example would be, “I have received 70’s on all of my math tests this semester.” ---
**Author:** ![tangirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@tangirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tangirl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/40 "2002-07-22T03:22:31Z")
Gotcha Archenar! Didn’t think aobut it that way. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568.md?page=3)