# OK, what's the final word on the use of apostrophes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2002, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568 "2002-07-18T07:15:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/41 "2002-07-22T08:06:27Z")
**Hari** – What lowercase acronyms are there? Whenever I use an acronym, I capitalize the whole thing, except for the s at the end if it’s a plural. **Shade** – I see what you’re saying. However, if this statement appeared in a story, it would surely have been expanded upon. Prior and subsequent action would indicate if it was the balls only, and not poor Bill himself (or the balls _and_ poor Bill) that were the recipients of the jamming. Therefore, it’s not necessary to add the 's to Bill. Let’s try it without the passive verb: I jammed a nail into Bill and Ted’s ball. \> one ball, jointly owned. I jammed a nail into Bill’s and Ted’s ball. \> same, but cumbersome. I jammed a nail into Bill and Ted’s balls. \> several balls, jointly owned. I jammed a nail into Bill’s and Ted’s balls. \> several balls, separate ownership. Right? Hope you guys don’t think I’m a man-hater. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![julian64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/aca169/32.png) [@julian64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/julian64)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/42 "2002-07-22T09:26:21Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by RickJay \* \*\*1. My last name is Jones, so I live with this sort of thing. You absolutely SHOULD put the S after the apostrophe when pluralizing a proper noun that ends with S. Jones’ is wrong; newspapers may do it to save space, but Jones’ is not a word in any language. “Jones’s” is correct. Trust me, I should know. 🙂 Nouns that end in S or Z do not change the rules of possessives. It’s Jones’s, Gaz’s, moss’s, Lycos’s, floss’s. Hear, hear! And if anyone still doesn’t agree with RickJay, “hear, hear” literally - if you use your ears, they will tell you the answer. You don’t SAY “keeping up with the Jones,” but “keeping up with the Jonesizz” - the “izz” sound at the end tells you, without a doubt, that there are two esses on the end. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/43 "2002-07-22T09:42:27Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by julian64 \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*You don’t SAY “keeping up with the Jones,” but “keeping up with the Jonesizz” - the “izz” sound at the end tells you, without a doubt, that there are two esses on the end. \*\* Maybe so, but that’s nothing to do with the possessive and there is no apostrophe involved. It’s a plural. Paul Smith and Mary Smith are the Smiths. Paul Jones and Mary Jones are the Joneses. Those who aspire to the same display of conspicuous consumption as Paul Jones and Mary Jones are trying to keep up with the Joneses. ---
**Author:** ![julian64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/aca169/32.png) [@julian64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/julian64)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/44 "2002-07-22T09:45:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UDS \* > \*\* > > Maybe so, but that’s nothing to do with the possessive and there is no apostrophe involved. It’s a plural. Paul Smith and Mary Smith are the Smiths. Paul Jones and Mary Jones are the Joneses. Those who aspire to the same display of conspicuous consumption as Paul Jones and Mary Jones are trying to keep up with the Joneses. \*\* Quite right - I should’ve had another coffee before writing my example: “Fred Jones’s book,” pronounced “Fred Jonesizz book,” should do the trick as an example. ---
**Author:** ![rangergordon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5e9695/32.png) [@rangergordon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rangergordon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/45 "2002-07-22T10:38:15Z")
It’s fun and instructive to look for the exceptions. Regarding the rule that “it’s” always means “it is” or “it has”, an exception might be when referring to something belonging to a certain Addams Family member: “Where are you going with Cousin It’s sledgehammer?” ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/46 "2002-07-22T18:41:35Z")
It in that form is a name so the name IT would start with a capital I. If a sentence is unclear like Ted and Bill’s it needs to be rewritten so it is clear. Also no one mentioned my favorite. MOTHERS in Law. not Mother in Laws Which has nothing to do with ’ but is a cool plural. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/47 "2002-07-22T21:54:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AudreyK \* > **I jammed a nail into Bill and Ted’s ball. \> one ball, jointly owned. > I jammed a nail into Bill’s and Ted’s ball. \> same, but cumbersome.** I personally perfer the second example. It doesn’t seem too cumbersome to me, and the first one is ambiguous. It might also mean (not to get **too** macabre) “I jammed a nail into Ted’s ball and Bill.” And insisting that we rewrite the sentence is not only a copout, it’s not as much fun. ---
**Author:** ![tangirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@tangirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tangirl)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/48 "2002-07-23T01:46:43Z")
Back to Jones’ vs. Jones’s, just because I was curious. 😉 Apparently, it can be pronounced either way. But since Mr. Jones seemed to feel quite strongly about it… 😉 Here’s the [link](http://www.bartleby.com/68/26/5226.html). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MisterBK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8c91f0/32.png) [@MisterBK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterBK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/49 "2002-07-24T04:35:14Z")
Regarding apostrophes as placeholders for missing letters: am I the only one who thinks the reduced form of _and_ should be written _‘n’_? As in the Simpsons’ shopping destination **Try ‘N’ Save**. ---
**Author:** ![MisterBK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8c91f0/32.png) [@MisterBK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterBK)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/50 "2002-07-24T04:41:39Z")
And before the grammar nazis jump all over me\*: yes, I know one should never try _and_ do something. I’m just givin’ an example. \*Though really, this discussion has been remarkably civilized, considering the fits of murderous rage that apostrophe misuse is often seen to provoke. (Or is it ‘ **e** voke’? Christ. :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/51 "2002-07-24T06:08:18Z")
Rock **‘n’** roll! ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/52 "2002-07-24T16:47:09Z")
After **Achernar** ’ (:)) summary, he wrote: > [@](#): > > Did I miss anything? How about [ul] [li] **Possessive form of a pluralized name** :[/li][li] **Possessive form of a pluralized name where the singular form already ends in s** :[/li][li] **Possessive form of a pluralized name where the singular form begins and ends in s** :[/li][/ul] As an (admittedly contrived) example of the last, Is it “The three Jesuses’s ball.” or “The four Moseses’ bat.”? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/53 "2002-07-24T16:57:16Z")
I hope I’m not getting whooshed here, but your question is a non-issue, **ZenBeam**. Possessive plurals are fairly regular in their formation. If the plural ends in _s_, simply add an apostrophe. To wit: cats’ pegasuses’ Earls’ Jesuses’ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/54 "2002-07-24T19:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rangergordon \* > \*\*It’s fun and instructive to look for the exceptions. Regarding the rule that “it’s” always means “it is” or “it has”, an exception might be when referring to something belonging to a certain Addams Family member: > > “Where are you going with Cousin It’s sledgehammer?” \*\* Nice try, but no go. It’s Cousin **Itt**. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568/55 "2002-07-24T20:37:40Z")
As I understood it, the rule on whether to place an S after an apostrophe showing possession by a noun ending in S, whether or not the noun-ending S indicated plurality, was whether the -‘S indicated a separate silibant syllable (say that five times fast!;)). Therefore “Jones’s car” takes a final -‘s because what you say is “Joanz-uz kahr” but "the Joneses’ car" does not because you pronounce it almost identically to “Jones’s car” (except for the initial “thuh” of course). "For Jesus’ sake" is accurate because it’s not pronounced as “Jee-zus-uz sayk” but rather “Jee-zus sayk.” Something that does need to be added is that “-'s” is the proper form for pluralizing a written symbol, as in a letter used as such, a number, or a typographical character: “Mind your P’s and Q’s” or “Write out 1’s through 10’s in narrative text” (which is effectively a fumblerule!) or “There are never two or more @'s in an e-mail address.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-whats-the-final-word-on-the-use-of-apostrophes/119568.md?page=2)