# Ok, you're deaf, why be an asshole about it? (Gallaudet) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378 "2006-10-30T00:21:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blue\_Willow\_Plate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Blue\_Willow\_Plate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Willow_Plate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/41 "2006-10-30T02:28:18Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] I don’t really have a dog in this fight (despite my participation in this thread,) but I disagree with this line of reasoning, **Ripper**. Though the school accepts Federal funds, it doesn’t follow that the student body doesn’t have a right to protest the boards selection of school president. It doesn’t even mean that the students are wasting Federal money by staging their protests - that’s reading into it waaay too much. On the other hand, \*\*Blue Willow Plate’s \*\* assertions don’t hold water either. Just because you don’t have a connection to Gallaudet doesn’t mean you’re not entitiled to your opinion. [/QUOTE] Well, maybe not. I guess I just figure a deaf college should have the ideals of the deaf community in mind, and if the current president isn’t in line with those ideals then that president needs to figure out why. I mean, that’s the president’s JOB, isn’t it? If the president’s ideals are sound, the president stays in; if they’re not sound, the populace rises up and makes that person no longer the president. If the president can’t figure out how to wrap his or her plans around the those of the populace that president deserves to be voted out, don’t you think? Lots of non-Koreans, for example, want Kim Jong-Il out of office, but I don’t see anyone banging down HIS doors, and lots of people are spending lots of money keeping HIS people fed. Ripper offered up $100 million as the reason why anyone else should have a say and when called on it said, essentially, “Oh, wait! That’s not what I meant!” I think the long view is that lots of students at lots of universities receiving lots of federal dollars are pissed off at lots of administrations, but - given these two threads - Ripper has a hard on for a deaf university, and I’m not really sure why. Does anyone have any facts and figures on how much state colleges and universities spend on people with disabilities? ---
**Author:** ![carterba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@carterba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carterba)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/42 "2006-10-30T02:42:01Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] She explained that the language you use to communicate dictates your thinking style and how you relate to the people and the world around you. The idea is that language is the first form of logic we ever learn, and it colors all subsequent disciplines we learn. There’s a lot written about this in the psychology and sociology books so I won’t dive into it - suffice to say that she’s right, someone who grows up speaking Cantonese will have a different fundamental approach to thinking than someone who grows up speaking French. Language dictates culture to a large degree. [/QUOTE] I’ll let someone more versed in linguistics than me handle this in greater detail (hopefully), but in the meantime I’ll point out that this is known as the [Sapir-Whorf hypothesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf). To say she’s right is a big, big stretch—I’m pretty sure this is no longer widely accepted by linguists and philosophers of language. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/43 "2006-10-30T02:44:09Z")
[QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] Well, maybe not. I guess I just figure a deaf college should have the ideals of the deaf community in mind, and if the current president isn’t in line with those ideals then that president needs to figure out why. I mean, that’s the president’s JOB, isn’t it? If the president’s ideals are sound, the president stays in; if they’re not sound, the populace rises up and makes that person no longer the president. If the president can’t figure out how to wrap his or her plans around the those of the populace that president deserves to be voted out, don’t you think? [/QUOTE] I didn’t say you’re \*entire \* argument was wrong - just the idea that \*\*Ripper \*\* isn’t entitled to an opinion on the matter. One thing you can count on at schools of higher learning is that the students will object to the administrators. If that never happened, It’d be a rare school indeed. Students always object to the administration, and they are always entitled to their opinion. Other people outside the school will always say that the students should shut up, just like **Ripper**. Doesn’t mean they’re right or wrong either, just entitled to their opinion. If anything, this thread has convinced me that Gallaudet is a pretty typical college. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/44 "2006-10-30T02:45:16Z")
And this isn’t just about “deaf culture”. It’s about “Deaf culture” and the Deaf Culture Movement, which are entirely different things than just small-d deaf culture. Suffice it to say that I’ve seen some webrants that make me think that there are Deaf people out there who wouldn’t particularly shy away from conducting a purge of the hearing-impaired in order to ensure that only the Deaf (as opposed to the merely deaf) can use the word at all. ---
**Author:** ![zeno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zeno/32/15040_2.png) [@zeno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeno)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/45 "2006-10-30T02:51:17Z")
I used to do phone support for a major ISP and we’d occassionally get deaf relay phone calls from customers. Almost without exception, they were unadulterated pricks. And in those relays, they’re allowed to talk to you, but you can only communicate with them through the operator and you can barely ever understand what they’re saying. I dont really feel sorry for them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/46 "2006-10-30T02:54:11Z")
ISTM that the protesting students are protesting via knee-jerk. The new appointee may, or may not, be the best person to advance the needs/causes/mission of the university. To refuse to gauge the qualifications based on one quality and one quality alone is, IMHO, irresponsible and unjust. Regarding “pay the tuition = decide who’s in charge”: why? I’d be very surprised if tuition were the bulk of the university’s funding. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/47 "2006-10-30T02:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] Well, maybe not. I guess I just figure a deaf college should have the ideals of the deaf community in mind, and if the current president isn’t in line with those ideals then that president needs to figure out why. I mean, that’s the president’s JOB, isn’t it? [/QUOTE] Well, recognizing the “deals of the deaf community” may be part of the president’s JOB, would you care to demonstrate how the formerly incomeing president did not have same in mind? THIS IS THE POINT OF MY OP! [QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] If the president’s ideals are sound, the president stays in; if they’re not sound, the populace rises up and makes that person no longer the president. If the president can’t figure out how to wrap his or her plans around the those of the populace that president deserves to be voted out, don’t you think? [/QUOTE] Can you show that ANY of this occurred in the present instance? You are spouting nebulous ideals without tying them to anything that has actually occurred. [QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] Lots of non-Koreans, for example, want Kim Jong-Il out of office, but I don’t see anyone banging down HIS doors, and lots of people are spending lots of money keeping HIS people fed. [/QUOTE] What? [QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] Ripper offered up $100 million as the reason why anyone else should have a say and when called on it said, essentially, “Oh, wait! That’s not what I meant!” [/QUOTE] Yeah, no. [QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] I think the long view is that lots of students at lots of universities receiving lots of federal dollars are pissed off at lots of administrations, but - given these two threads - Ripper has a hard on for a deaf university, and I’m not really sure why. [/QUOTE] Mind giving a link to my other thread if you are going to cite it? [QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] Does anyone have any facts and figures on how much state colleges and universities spend on people with disabilities? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/48 "2006-10-30T02:57:51Z")
[QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate] Well, maybe not. I guess I just figure a deaf college should have the ideals of the deaf community in mind, and if the current president isn’t in line with those ideals then that president needs to figure out why. I mean, that’s the president’s JOB, isn’t it? If the president’s ideals are sound, the president stays in; if they’re not sound, the populace rises up and makes that person no longer the president. If the president can’t figure out how to wrap his or her plans around the those of the populace that president deserves to be voted out, don’t you think? Lots of non-Koreans, for example, want Kim Jong-Il out of office, but I don’t see anyone banging down HIS doors, and lots of people are spending lots of money keeping HIS people fed. Ripper offered up $100 million as the reason why anyone else should have a say and when called on it said, essentially, “Oh, wait! That’s not what I meant!” I think the long view is that lots of students at lots of universities receiving lots of federal dollars are pissed off at lots of administrations, but - given these two threads - Ripper has a hard on for a deaf university, and I’m not really sure why. Does anyone have any facts and figures on how much state colleges and universities spend on people with disabilities? [/QUOTE] Here’s the dig. If you want to run a discriminatory school, you can. But it has to be a private school and you certainly do not receive federal funding and in fact you lose the right to operate your school as a tax exempt organization. For example Bob Jones University did not agree to start freely admitted blacks until a court decision which said if they did not do so they would lose their tax exempt status (they had already allowed the admission of _married_ blacks, but prohibited the admission of unmarried blacks.) After that however they continued a ban on _interracial dating_ this also went the to the SCOTUS where Bob Jones lost, and refused to reverse its prohibition on interracial dating, as a result of this BJU had to pay over $1m in back taxes to the IRS. So, I think the idea is, if you’re receiving public funds you lose your right to be bigoted. And I think that extends to the idea that a board of trustees shouldn’t be able to have discriminatory hiring practices in regards to the university President based on said President’s disability, level of disability, or etc. I think the board has to be able to show it makes its decisions based on the competence of the person at hand, not their disability status, paradoxically the fact that because of the particular nature of Fernandes disability she was dismissed I fail to see how the school as a federally funded institution isn’t in violation of various legislative acts designed to protect the disabled. In fact, most of those acts apply to _society at large_ including private entities. And I do hold that this decision, and the students, are bigoted. Unless they can show compelling evidence that 1) Fernandes truly was insufficiently familiar with ASL, 2) the fact that she did not begin using ASL until later in life made her unfit to perform as President. I honestly do not think they would be able to demonstrate that to my satisfaction, and unless they could I’d view the students opposition to her and the ultimate decision by the board in regards to her as a bigoted act. And in general I don’t want my tax payer dollars, even one cent or one one millionth of a cent going to an organization that has discriminatory or bigoted hiring practices. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/49 "2006-10-30T02:59:01Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Sigh. No, please research the topic. They were protesting their formerly incoming president was not deaf enough. That makes them assholes. Christ. [/QUOTE] I’m not deaf and don’t really know anyone who is but I live not too far from Gallaudet and have been following this story for a while and from what I have read the issues involved are rather more complex than whether or not she is deaf enough. Fernandes worked as the University’s provost for six years prior to becoming the the named the President. She was not well liked by the faculty or the student body. There was also a large amount of dissatisfaction with the way the search process was conducted and it appeared to many that more qualified persons were passed over to nominate Fernandes. From my perspective as someone who has to take Florida Avenue on a fairly regular basis, the protesters have been fairly behaved. They haven’t been blocking the streets or even making much in the way of a disturbance to the outside community. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/50 "2006-10-30T03:00:32Z")
I concur. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/51 "2006-10-30T03:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] I concur. [/QUOTE] With **Martin Hyde** that is. As far as **Caffeine.addict** is concerned, here is a [link](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2607213) to their “fairly behaved” activities. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/52 "2006-10-30T03:10:19Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] With **Martin Hyde** that is. As far as **Caffeine.addict** is concerned, here is a [link](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2607213) to their “fairly behaved” activities. [/QUOTE] The story reads to me basically like the university ran a bulldozer through a sit-in. I don’t support the student’s role in this, but I can’t say your story does anything to make them appear unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/53 "2006-10-30T03:16:09Z")
I’ve always thought the students at this school were bigots. If they want to confine their entire existence to the “deaf culture” they are taking the right approach. But if they want to ever succeed outside of their cocoon they need to be able to interact with people that can hear. Maintaining such a closed society on campus hurts their chances to succeed once they leave it. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/54 "2006-10-30T03:17:09Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] As far as **Caffeine.addict** is concerned, here is a [link](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2607213) to their “fairly behaved” activities. [/QUOTE] Did you actually _read_ that story? It doesn’t make the students out to be violent - just the administrators and their heavy construction equipment. This article also napalms the argument that the students are protesting over Fernandes’ Deaf-ness: [QUOTE=Ripper’s Link] Protesters have said Fernandes, the school’s former provost, is divisive and ineffective as a leader for the university. The faculty has overwhelmingly voted to ask Fernandes to resign or be removed. Fernandes has said she is determined to become the university’s president when current leader I. King Jordan leaves in January. She said protesters have made her the focus of their frustrations over changes in deaf culture. [/QUOTE] So it isn’t the student’s saying she isn’t Deaf enough, it’s Fernandes \*claiming \* that the students are saying that. Fernandes is putting words in their… well, she’s mischaracterising their argument. And the faculty agrees with the students. Care to post any other links destroying your argument? ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/55 "2006-10-30T03:25:01Z")
Operation Ripper, I recall reading about that in the Post. What happened is that the administration decided to unblock on the entrances that the students had blocked and they decided to use construction equipment to do so. That had nothing to do with the students. I’ve been on the campus and it is fairly nice. I’m not sure that it is nicer than Catholic’s campus but overall it looks nice. I took a walk there one evening with a friend last year while waiting for our take out order at a nearby carryout place. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/56 "2006-10-30T03:26:27Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] The deaf who grow up communicating through ASL have a different communication style than any of us. It goes beyond the simple physical differences - there’s a different grammar, a different order of thought. Here’s the example the lecturer gave us of the way a hearing person expresses an idea vs the literal translation of a deaf person expressing the same idea in ASL: Hearing person: “I’m going to see a movie.” Deaf person (in ASL): “Movie me go.” [/QUOTE] Presumably, being in college, it comes naturally for these students to write the above thought as “I’m going to see a movie.” So, I’m not sure how much credence I give to this idea of such a vastly different cultural mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Mayo\_Speaks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mayo\_Speaks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mayo_Speaks)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/57 "2006-10-30T03:30:12Z")
Could someone explain the difference between “deaf” and “Deaf”? It’s hard to google that. In the summer of 2004, I spent 10 days at Gallaudet for a summer camp. It had nothing to do with deaf (or Deaf) culture, we just slept there. The people who worked the cafeteria were deaf, so I learned the sign for “thank you” and signed it to several of the workers. Upon doing so, I was glared at as if I had just called their mothers whores. I got the sense that they wanted to be perfectly clear that they didn’t need me to sign to them. I noticed this same attitude several times at the college. I was reminded of them while reading [this Onion article](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/53834), actually. So I say fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Willow\_Plate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Blue\_Willow\_Plate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Willow_Plate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/58 "2006-10-30T03:33:31Z")
I’m tired and off to bed, but I just couldn’t leave without responding to this ibt, at least: [QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Mind giving a link to my other thread if you are going to cite it? [/QUOTE] You’re not seriously asking me to cite the post you yourself offered up there around #30, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/59 "2006-10-30T03:34:20Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] The deaf who grow up communicating through ASL have a different communication style than any of us. It goes beyond the simple physical differences - there’s a different grammar, a different order of thought. Here’s the example the lecturer gave us of the way a hearing person expresses an idea vs the literal translation of a deaf person expressing the same idea in ASL: Hearing person: “I’m going to see a movie.” Deaf person (in ASL): “Movie me go.” You can understand how someone who communicates in the ASL style may feel no relation whatsoever someone who speaks as the hearing do. I don’t pretend to understand deaf culture, but the fact that they have a distinctly different way of grasping the world and relating to each other is clear. Their problem with this last candidate wasn’t that she was poor at ASL or wasn’t deaf enough - it’s that she was not part of _deaf culture_. I can see their point, although I disagree that this disqualifies her as a president. [/QUOTE] Except for the fact that the outgoing president, I. Jordan King didn’t grow up speaking ASL, either-he only became deaf after a motorcycle accident when he was 21. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378/60 "2006-10-30T03:36:02Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Actually, the 1988 protests were about a new administrator also. Elizabeth Zinser (hearing) was chosen, and the students protested. The Board rolled over and appointed King Jordan (deaf, maybe Deaf…the deep conspiracy people don’t consider him deaf enough, either). [/QUOTE] Elizabeth Zinser was a dean where I attended college. I had a particularly sticky situation with a very odd professor. My solution was to drop the class, but due to a technicality (the class met once a week, so it was past the drop date, but not within the number of classes by at least half.) I had to go up the chain of command, none of whom had the stones to let me drop. When I got to her, she queried me about my reasons and agreed with me. I was allowed to drop. I was very impressed with her intelligence, diplomacy, listening ability, and understanding. I was very sorry to see her leave, but it was a good career opportunity for her. Her rejection by the students stung; they had no idea who she was but considered her unfit based solely on a physical coondition. As good a description of prejudice as you will find. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-youre-deaf-why-be-an-asshole-about-it-gallaudet/378378.md?page=4)