# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/181 "2016-08-23T16:28:48Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Well, that’s one reading of it. Can’t think of another one, to be honest, but that could have to do with my lack of imagination, not **ZPG** ’s opinions. As I said, we are making a lot of assumptions. Earlier on, I took one of her posts to mean that women should randomly accuse innocent men of rape. That was the only reading I thought possible of the post in question. But then \*\*ZPG \*\*explained, and that wasn’t what she meant. Turns out, there was a more benign possibility that I had missed. That’s why I’m asking for clarifications before jumping any guns. If you ever find yourself giving ZPG the benefit of the doubt because you’re figuring she couldn’t possibly mean what it sounds like and you must be misinterpreting…don’t bother; you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/182 "2016-08-23T16:30:37Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK. Cool. > > OK. This seems to be an answer that assumes that an option has already been chosen, though. I guess I was thinking more like this: > > So, there’s this woman right here. She has just had a child, which she had not planned and doesn’t particularly want. She goes to see you, knowing that you’re a respected advisor (non-academic). She says: “ **ZPG** , I know this kind of thing isn’t really part of your job description, so you don’t have to give me an answer here. However, if you give me your opinion, there’s a ginormous tip in it for you. I have this kid here, that I do not want. I’m too traumatized to think straight. I could either kill the baby, or put it up for adoption. What do you think I should do? Again, if you don’t want to say, I’ll make my own mind up.” > Which option was that? Just for clarification. There seems to be an option number missing here. A typo, I assume. I would tell her only she can make the decision. I wouldn’t take any money from her because of the legal ramifications. I would tell her only as a friend what I would do in her position. If I was in her position I would possibly give it to another relative to raise or to someone I could trust as a guardian to raise as a ward or to one of the few good institutions I know of that take orphans. If the alternative was stranger adoption as commonly practiced in the United States today, I would pinch its nose and burying it well, but secretly. I have seen too many bad adoption experiences to risk that fate on a child which shared my blood. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/183 "2016-08-23T16:36:55Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > If you ever find yourself giving ZPG the benefit of the doubt because you’re figuring she couldn’t possibly mean what it sounds like and you must be misinterpreting…don’t bother; you’re not. Heh, and then her last few sentences in the following post after yours lays it all out… Hitler had a better PR team. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/184 "2016-08-23T16:42:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Being careful during sex solves a lot of those issues. But why shouldn’t someone be forced to be a parent? Do people have unlimited sovereignty over self? Should a man be able to force a woman to have an abortion so he’s not forced to be a parent? No, in an fair world, he should be given the opportunity during a reasonable, but brief period (I am thinking about the same amount of time in which a woman has to opportunity to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy to term) to surrender all parental rights and responsibilities to said child or fetus. His name does not go on the birth certificate. He cannot be dunned for child support. Conversely he has no more legal rights to interact with the child or make decisions about child’s life than any other stranger. The situation in which a man is able to force a woman to have an abortion is the ugly alternative worse case scenario way to address the issue fairness. I would seriously prefer we never have to go there as a culture. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/185 "2016-08-23T16:44:26Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Heh, and then her last few sentences in the following post after yours lays it all out… > > Hitler had a better PR team. Thanks for Godwinizing. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/186 "2016-08-23T17:04:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Thanks for Godwinizing. Actually, I was on another forum and Hitler reamed my ass for ZPGing his thread. Seriously though. There are some topics where any even a 1/10th normal person would label you as batshit crazy. And we aren’t talking the otherwise normal guy that is sure JFK’s assination was a conspiracy or Obama was actually born in Kenya or yaddaa yaddaa mostly harmless ideas. Your ideas on rape and adoption and few other things are WAY the fuck out there. And about things that ACTUALLY impact peoples lives in a real way. IIRC you even gloated awhile back in some thread about getting some folks canned or in trouble or whatever on some sort of sexual harrassement charges. Now from most any other poster around here, that would probably be no big deal. But from your crazy ass? If it is true…my money is someone got screwed over royally by some crazy assed bitch. Not only do you have crazy ideas about shit that matters, in your world you are surrounded by people that mostly AGREE with you. I don’t know what is scarier. That you think that or that is true. In anycase, if I knew you in real life, I’d probably move to get out of your sphere of crazy. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/187 "2016-08-23T17:04:28Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > They are adults. They think and communicate as human beings. Post-birth babies don’t have that level of consciousness or at least the ability for it to be observed and measured. They are organic bundles that have the potential to be human beings, but only with time and training will a human mind develop from them. Ideally, neonaticide shouldn’t be necessary. We should have better forms of birth control which everyone on the planet embraces and uses 100% of the time. And everyone 100% of time only conceives a child at an opportune time to parent. But that better world is a long way off. Until then some pragmatism is required. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I would tell her only she can make the decision. I wouldn’t take any money from her because of the legal ramifications. I would tell her only as a friend what I would do in her position. If I was in her position I would possibly give it to another relative to raise or to someone I could trust as a guardian to raise as a ward or to one of the few good institutions I know of that take orphans. If the alternative was stranger adoption as commonly practiced in the United States today, I would pinch its nose and burying it well, but secretly. I have seen too many bad adoption experiences to risk that fate on a child which shared my blood. You are a dangerous lunatic who is out of her goddamned mind. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/188 "2016-08-23T17:07:45Z")
Happy with your clarification, Martian? Pinch its nose and bury it deep, in case you missed it. Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/189 "2016-08-23T17:12:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Not only do you have crazy ideas about shit that matters, in your world you are surrounded by people that mostly AGREE with you. Of course they do. It’s like being around a conspiracy theorist every day: agree with them and maybe they’ll shut up for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/190 "2016-08-23T17:12:22Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > You are a dangerous lunatic who is out of her goddamned mind. I’m a person who values women as human beings, not carriers for babies. Adults created all the worlds cultures and societies, not babies ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/191 "2016-08-23T17:12:36Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > If you ever find yourself giving ZPG the benefit of the doubt because you’re figuring she couldn’t possibly mean what it sounds like and you must be misinterpreting…don’t bother; you’re not. As I said, I’ve already misinterpreted one of her posts earlier, and then had a different and more reasonable interpretation explained to me by **ZPG**. So this isn’t hypothetical. It’s already in the realm of things known to happen. Therefore, I shall continue to bother. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I would tell her only she can make the decision. I wouldn’t take any money from her because of the legal ramifications. I would tell her only as a friend what I would do in her position. If I was in her position I would possibly give it to another relative to raise or to someone I could trust as a guardian to raise as a ward or to one of the few good institutions I know of that take orphans. If the alternative was stranger adoption as commonly practiced in the United States to day, I would pinch is nose and burying it well, but secretly. I have seen too many bad adoption experiences to risk that fate on a child which shared my blood. OK. I guess we’re keeping “advocating infanticide as preferable to adoption” on the list, for now. Although we’re adjusting it down to “adoption by strangers, as commonly practiced”. As far as I can tell, adoption by relatives, a trusted guardian or a good institution is still considered preferable to infanticide by **ZPG**. See? More benign. There are nuances to consider here. It’s not all so binary. **ZPG** , please tell me if there’s still something in there that I’m not getting right. Also, just wondering: Could you give me some examples of such institutions that take orphans or unwanted children, that you would consider OK for giving the kid to? Just curious. How about the other scenario, though, with the child support. My understanding is that you would advise me, if put on the spot, to kill the child in this scenario as well, rather than pay the child support? But not the woman, right? If I asked you if I should murder the woman, you would be against that? I can take woman-murdering off the list? Back to the child for a moment. In the extreme scenario, where the choice comes down to infanticide vs adoption by strangers, it seems that we’re talking specifically _infant_icide. Is there an age where the kid is too old for the murdering to be the preferred option? If so, are we talking days? Weeks? Months? Below the age of reason? Is there some cut-off, do you think? Say the women comes to you with a two-year old, instead of an infant. She says: “This kid, that I never wanted, is driving me up the freaking wall, and has been doing so for two years straight. I would very much like to kill the little brat.” (Which I am sure is not too unlikely a scenario, I have met any number of parents who have expressed similar sentiments). “Obviously, I can’t find any relatives, friends or respectable institutions that are crazy enough to take the kid off my hands. However, I also have the option to get rid of the snot-nosed monster by way of adoption to strangers, who don’t know what they’re getting themselves into. What should I do, in your opinion? Kill the kid, or go with the adoption to strangers?” ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/192 "2016-08-23T17:21:14Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > As I said, I’ve already misinterpreted one of her posts earlier, and then had a different and more reasonable interpretation explained to me by **ZPG**. So this isn’t hypothetical. It’s already in the realm of things known to happen. Therefore, I shall continue to bother. > OK. I guess we’re keeping “advocating infanticide as preferable to adoption” on the list, for now. Although we’re adjusting it down to “adoption by strangers, as commonly practiced”. As far as I can tell, adoption by relatives, a trusted guardian or a good institution is still considered preferable to infanticide by **ZPG**. See? More benign. With all due respect, how the fuck is that more benign? She’s still advocating infanticide which is utterly unequivocally disgusting. We may have systemic problems in our adoption protocol here, but talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/193 "2016-08-23T17:24:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m a person who values women as human beings, not carriers for babies. Adults created all the worlds cultures and societies, not babies Delusional & unhinged. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/194 "2016-08-23T17:30:40Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Happy with your clarification, Martian? Pinch its nose and bury it deep, in case you missed it. > > Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk So we women should always rejoicefully consign ourselves to the fate of incubator slaves for the adoption industry, rather than resist by any means necessary? I am always reminded of Margaret Garner when people ask me questions like this. You probably think she was a callous murderer also, rather than a victim (survivor) of horrific circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/195 "2016-08-23T17:36:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > So we women should always rejoicefully consign ourselves to the fate of incubator slaves for the adoption industry, rather than resist by any means necessary? . If you feel THAT strongly about it…maybe just not have sex? Or in other words don’t let THE MAN fuck you over. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/196 "2016-08-23T17:39:43Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > So we women should always rejoicefully consign ourselves to the fate of incubator slaves for the adoption industry, rather than resist by any means necessary? I am always reminded of Margaret Garner when people ask me questions like this. You probably think she was a callous murderer also, rather than a victim (survivor) of horrific circumstances. Delusional & unhinged. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/197 "2016-08-23T17:41:33Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > As I said, I’ve already misinterpreted one of her posts earlier, and then had a different and more reasonable interpretation explained to me by **ZPG**. So this isn’t hypothetical. It’s already in the realm of things known to happen. Therefore, I shall continue to bother. > OK. I guess we’re keeping “advocating infanticide as preferable to adoption” on the list, for now. Although we’re adjusting it down to “adoption by strangers, as commonly practiced”. As far as I can tell, adoption by relatives, a trusted guardian or a good institution is still considered preferable to infanticide by **ZPG**. See? More benign. There are nuances to consider here. It’s not all so binary. > > **ZPG** , please tell me if there’s still something in there that I’m not getting right. Also, just wondering: Could you give me some examples of such institutions that take orphans or unwanted children, that you would consider OK for giving the kid to? Just curious. > > How about the other scenario, though, with the child support. My understanding is that you would advise me, if put on the spot, to kill the child in this scenario as well, rather than pay the child support? But not the woman, right? If I asked you if I should murder the woman, you would be against that? I can take woman-murdering off the list? > > Back to the child for a moment. In the extreme scenario, where the choice comes down to infanticide vs adoption by strangers, it seems that we’re talking specifically _infant_icide. Is there an age where the kid is too old for the murdering to be the preferred option? If so, are we talking days? Weeks? Months? Below the age of reason? Is there some cut-off, do you think? > > Say the women comes to you with a two-year old, instead of an infant. She says: “This kid, that I never wanted, is driving me up the freaking wall, and has been doing so for two years straight. I would very much like to kill the little brat.” (Which I am sure is not too unlikely a scenario, I have met any number of parents who have expressed similar sentiments). “Obviously, I can’t find any relatives, friends or respectable institutions that are crazy enough to take the kid off my hands. However, I also have the option to get rid of the snot-nosed monster by way of adoption to strangers, who don’t know what they’re getting themselves into. What should I do, in your opinion? Kill the kid, or go with the adoption to strangers?” Hand the two year old over to social services and let them decide his or her fate to avoid going to prison, though I would tell the woman she was dodging her responsibilities to raise a child she choose to bring into the world. Having decided to be parent (and having sex is not deciding to be a parent, it’s deciding to get laid) that’s not a commitment to be put aside while the child still needs care. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/198 "2016-08-23T17:44:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > So we women should always rejoicefully consign ourselves to the fate of incubator slaves for the adoption industry, rather than resist by any means necessary? I am always reminded of Margaret Garner when people ask me questions like this. You probably think she was a callous murderer also, rather than a victim (survivor) of horrific circumstances. Didn’t know who Garner was, so I learned something. Garner killed her daughter to save her from a lifetime of slavery. How is that the same thing at all? I have also learned that you are a dangerous lunatic – it’s a very plausible possiblity that the hypothetical unwanted child might feature in the life of someone you know and maybe have influence over – I don’t think it too much to describe you as a potential murderer. Why other Dopers have shown you the least bit of patience I have no idea, the best I can say for this thread is that it’s given the unfortunate opportunity to see into a very sick mind. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/199 "2016-08-23T17:45:51Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > If you feel THAT strongly about it…maybe just not have sex? > > Or in other words don’t let THE MAN fuck you over. If you think I’m unhinged now, you should see what I am like without sex. Seriously, a healthy sex life with a consenting partner (if you have one) is a fundamental right as a human being. It shouldn’t be a caste privilege only for those able to afford safe, illegal abortion. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/200 "2016-08-23T17:47:28Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > the best I can say for this thread is that it’s given the unfortunate opportunity to see into a very sick mind. I think that every time I encounter an adopter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=11)