# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/221 "2016-08-23T18:50:36Z")
See what I mean about the allophone thing? adoption by strangers / slavery and a fate worse than death - equivalent to **ZPG** , Intuitively different to the rest of us. (How the fuck \*\*ZPG \*\*equates the two based on observable evidence, I don’t know, but I’ll note that it seems that she does. Back to the thing about different sets of facts.) adoption by strangers / adoption by relatives or a trusted guardian - more or less equivalent for us, totally different to **ZPG**. adoptive parents / biological parents - more or less equivalent for us, intuitively very different to \*\*ZPG \*\*(who also, I’ll note, does not use the term “parents” for adoptive parents, instead preferring, as far as I can tell, the term “adopters”). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/222 "2016-08-23T18:51:41Z")
Perhaps worth noting that the idea of justifying infanticide is not as far out as many posters seem to be assuming. [Here’s an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion.2C_euthanasia.2C_and_infanticide) of a guy who justifies it in some circumstances and is a not a societal pariah. To the contrary, he’s celebrated as a “moral philosopher”. He is a professor of bioethics at Princeton University, and a Laureate Professor at the University of Melbourne, named Australian Humanist of the Year by the Council of Australian Humanist Societies, and voted one of Australia’s ten most influential public intellectuals. In 2012, he was named a _Companion of the Order of Australia_ for his services to philosophy and bioethics. (I’m frankly not sure what all these things mean or represent, but on the whole you get the impression that he’s highly thought of by a lot of people.) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/223 "2016-08-23T18:51:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No, my opinion is that lefffield6 would have probably been better off raised by the people responsible for his conception or were related to him or by legal guardians secure enough in their own identity as caregivers not feel to need to masquerade as blood relatives. Yet he (?) knows his adoptive parents, and knows about his biological relatives, and feels differently than you do. How do you reconcile this? ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/224 "2016-08-23T18:57:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No, my opinion is that lefffield6 would have probably been better off raised by the people responsible for his conception or were related to him or by legal guardians secure enough in their own identity as caregivers not feel to need to masquerade as blood relatives. And this is why you need to just be quiet. You speak from ignorance. My biological mother was a diagnosed schizophrenic. My biological father, after returning from WWII with lifelong painful injuries, proceeded to crawl inside the bottle for the rest of his life. My biological brother and sister grew up poor, malnourished, and had to basically fend for themselves from a very early age. Neither finished high school, neither went to college. I, OTOH, was adopted by a couple who was childless, but not by choice. They raised me in a middle class family where I was encouraged to succeed in sports, friendships, and school, and eventually I went on to graduate from college. I suffered no physical or mental abuse, and I never once had to go beg a neighbor for food, or a few logs for a fire. My biological siblings suffered all this, and more. I have a good relationship with my siblings now, more like close cousins than siblings, but appropriate considering our different upbringings. I also never suffered the anger and abandonment issues that my biological sister did, and does to this day. No one masqueraded as anything. Unlike you, masquerading here as a person with reasonable ideas. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/225 "2016-08-23T18:57:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No, my opinion is that lefffield6 would have probably been better off raised by the people responsible for his conception or were related to him or by legal guardians secure enough in their own identity as caregivers not feel to need to masquerade as blood relatives. Look, you’re mother didn’t want you, but did she also try to smother you? Maybe it’s too late for you to deal with it, so delusional & unhinged seems like the better strategy. Is that it? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/226 "2016-08-23T19:01:58Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Wouldn’t an adoptive parent be an “adopter”? You said that every time you meet an adopter, it gives you a look into a very sick mind. Therefore, every adoptive parent has a very sick mind. > > ETA: Again we return to semantics. You don’t consider the man that leftfield6 considered to be his father a “parent.” Nonetheless, you called someone that poster loves very much a very sick individual. > > Are any of this wide circle of people around adoptive parents? Or adopted? Do they know how you fee; about them? I’ve had a friends that were victims of adoption. I’ve spent a lot of time helping some of them heal from what was done to them. Sometimes they recover. Sometimes they don’t. One of my closest teenage friend was an adoptee. She killed herself. I have always wanted to have her reburied with her real family (I was able to locate some members later), but cannot legally do that. I avoid the company of adopters. They are people I can’t be friends with. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/227 "2016-08-23T19:02:21Z")
**Martian Bigfoot** , while it may be fun to find a logical physiology for this loony toon, it’s going to ultimately amount to wasted effort. I actually speak from experience. I too, liked to bait the online crazies, but it eventually backfired on me and I became the online crazy. Consider this personality profile of ZPGZ: she’s never felt like she fit in with “normal” people, so she constructed a front to make her stand out from the others. This involved inventing her own culture that has no basis in context. She cherry-picked various elements from other cultures, or made up her own, and incorporated those concepts into an ever-growing mishmash of contradictions and fallacies. She now has an identity that’s vastly different from those around her, and can act offended and unfairly mistreated when people unintentionally step on her toes, because they have no idea what her boundaries are. She doesn’t really expect anybody to know them; she just makes them up as she goes along, just so she can put herself on a pedestal of perpetual martyrdom. Because of what she perceives as unjust rejection by men and women who are repulsed by her, she’s adopted this misanthropic attitude so she can shock them even more for daring to reject her. Her only logical basis is that this makes her a unique, and therefore interesting individual, much like [this guy who has sex with cars](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/edward-smith_n_4098886.html). Don’t try to make sense of it. Just nod your head and move on. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/228 "2016-08-23T19:06:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Perhaps worth noting that the idea of justifying infanticide is not as far out as many posters seem to be assuming. > > [Here’s an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion.2C_euthanasia.2C_and_infanticide) of a guy who justifies it in some circumstances and is a not a societal pariah. To the contrary, he’s celebrated as a “moral philosopher”. He is a professor of bioethics at Princeton University, and a Laureate Professor at the University of Melbourne, named Australian Humanist of the Year by the Council of Australian Humanist Societies, and voted one of Australia’s ten most influential public intellectuals. In 2012, he was named a _Companion of the Order of Australia_ for his services to philosophy and bioethics. (I’m frankly not sure what all these things mean or represent, but on the whole you get the impression that he’s highly thought of by a lot of people.) This would make for an excellent topic in GD. Why don’t you start one? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/229 "2016-08-23T19:08:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Look, you’re mother didn’t want you, but did she also try to smother you? Maybe it’s too late for you to deal with it, so delusional & unhinged seems like the better strategy. Is that it? My mother wanted a child (well, actually, baby, something whole controlled and dependent on their caregivers). That she did not want that child to grow up and be independent of her was the problem. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/230 "2016-08-23T19:08:52Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Martian Bigfoot** , while it may be fun to find a logical physiology for this loony toon, it’s going to ultimately amount to wasted effort. I actually speak from experience. I too, liked to bait the online crazies, but it eventually backfired on me and I became the online crazy. > > Consider this personality profile of ZPGZ: she’s never felt like she fit in with “normal” people, so she constructed a front to make her stand out from the others. This involved inventing her own culture that has no basis in context. She cherry-picked various elements from other cultures, or made up her own, and incorporated those concepts into an ever-growing mishmash of contradictions and fallacies. She now has an identity that’s vastly different from those around her, and can act offended and unfairly mistreated when people unintentionally step on her toes, because they have no idea what her boundaries are. She doesn’t really expect anybody to know them; she just makes them up as she goes along, just so she can put herself on a pedestal of perpetual martyrdom. > > Because of what she perceives as unjust rejection by men and women who are repulsed by her, she’s adopted this misanthropic attitude so she can shock them even more for daring to reject her. Her only logical basis is that this makes her a unique, and therefore interesting individual, much like [this guy who has sex with cars](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/edward-smith_n_4098886.html). Don’t try to make sense of it. Just nod your head and move on. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/231 "2016-08-23T19:10:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I avoid the company of adopters. Some people are just lucky I guess. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/232 "2016-08-23T19:14:36Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Yet he (?) knows his adoptive parents, and knows about his biological relatives, and feels differently than you do. How do you reconcile this? There are always exceptions. Though I do find it sad that he thinks of his brother and sister more as cousins than siblings and by that he means not as close siblings (in some cultures the bond between cousins can be as strong as between siblings). I’m also curious why his brother and sister were not also taken care by this childless couple who couldn’t bear the trauma hearing the word guardian. I know a lot of adopters will only consider babies. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/233 "2016-08-23T19:15:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Perhaps worth noting that the idea of justifying infanticide is not as far out as many posters seem to be assuming. > > [Here’s an example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion.2C_euthanasia.2C_and_infanticide) of a guy who justifies it in some circumstances and is a not a societal pariah. To the contrary, he’s celebrated as a “moral philosopher”. He is a professor of bioethics at Princeton University, and a Laureate Professor at the University of Melbourne, named Australian Humanist of the Year by the Council of Australian Humanist Societies, and voted one of Australia’s ten most influential public intellectuals. In 2012, he was named a _Companion of the Order of Australia_ for his services to philosophy and bioethics. (I’m frankly not sure what all these things mean or represent, but on the whole you get the impression that he’s highly thought of by a lot of people.) That’s super interesting, thanks. Peter Singer is a fascinating dude. I’ve read some of his stuff on veganism and animal rights. He’s certainly very far from any kind of homicidal maniac. More the opposite, as far as I can tell. I’d like to quote from the linked Wiki page: > [@linked Wiki page](#): > > Similar to his argument for abortion, Singer argues that newborns lack the essential characteristics of personhood—“rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness”—and therefore “killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living.” It’s not that incredibly far-fetched to imagine a version of our society where such ideas could become mainstream. Also, it’s not like infanticide hasn’t been an acceptable practice before, in societies that we identify with in many ways. It was in ancient Greece and Rome, at least to some extent. Often, at least in theory, the father held absolute power over the life and death of an infant. I’ve read that in ancient Sparta, infants who were not considered up to snuff for whatever reason would be killed. A common method of infanticide was exposure (basically, leaving the infant somewhere to die). There are stories from ancient Rome about large numbers of infants left on garbage heaps. The jury is out on how common and accepted this sort of thing was, but it almost certainly was to some degree. You could call people in those societies delusional, crazy or evil, but that would be writing off a lot of people. I don’t see any justification for doing that. They might find us here similarly strange. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/234 "2016-08-23T19:17:12Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Martian Bigfoot** , while it may be fun to find a logical physiology for this loony toon, it’s going to ultimately amount to wasted effort. I actually speak from experience. I too, liked to bait the online crazies, but it eventually backfired on me and I became the online crazy. I do see your point. Thank you. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/235 "2016-08-23T19:19:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > My mother wanted a child (well, actually, baby, something whole controlled and dependent on their caregivers). That she did not want that child to grow up and be independent of her was the problem. And how did she punish you for growing up? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/236 "2016-08-23T19:22:30Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > There are always exceptions. Though I do find it sad that he thinks of his brother and sister more as cousins than siblings and by that he means not as close siblings (in some cultures the bond between cousins can be as strong as between siblings). I’m also curious why his brother and sister were not also taken care by this childless couple who couldn’t bear the trauma hearing the word guardian. I know a lot of adopters will only consider babies. I find it fascinating that you know all of these adopted people who have been completely screwed up by their adopters. I know several adopted people and none of them were screwed up by their “adopters.” I do know a lot of people who were utterly screwed up by their \*biological \*parents and relatives. You also seem quite confident that these adopters “couldn’t bear the trauma [of] hearing the word guardian.” Is this supposition on your part, since you so assiduously avoid adopters? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/237 "2016-08-23T19:25:10Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > That’s super interesting, thanks. Peter Singer is a fascinating dude. I’ve read some of his stuff on veganism and animal rights. He’s certainly very far from any kind of homicidal maniac. More the opposite, as far as I can tell. > > I’d like to quote from the linked Wiki page: > It’s not that incredibly far-fetched to imagine a version of our society where such ideas could become mainstream. > > Also, it’s not like infanticide hasn’t been an acceptable practice before, in societies that we identify with in many ways. It was in ancient Greece and Rome, at least to some extent. Often, at least in theory, the father held absolute power over the life and death of an infant. I’ve read that in ancient Sparta, infants who were not considered up to snuff for whatever reason would be killed. A common method of infanticide was exposure (basically, leaving the infant somewhere to die). There are stories from ancient Rome about large numbers of infants left on garbage heaps. > > The jury is out on how common and accepted this sort of thing was, but it almost certainly was to some degree. You could call people in those societies delusional, crazy or evil, but that would be writing off a lot of people. I don’t see any justification for doing that. They might find us here similarly strange. So you and the good Professor agree with the Nazi extermination of handicapped children. Those young victims were life unworthy of life. You fit well into a ZPGZ thread. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/238 "2016-08-23T19:27:43Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > \*Psst - he did. we’re in it. \* Yeah, and it’s not even ironic. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/239 "2016-08-23T19:32:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > There are always exceptions. Though I do find it sad that he thinks of his brother and sister more as cousins than siblings and by that he means not as close siblings (in some cultures the bond between cousins can be as strong as between siblings). Don’t be. Crazy is bad enough, sad and crazy may be too much for you. Really, I’m fine. I have had many conversations with my siblings about this, especially my brother. Yes, we know we missed out on the older brother-younger brother thing. BUT, we have both said, dozens of times, that we are both glad it worked out the way it did. So, seriously, we are all good there. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m also curious why his brother and sister were not also taken care by this childless couple who couldn’t bear the trauma hearing the word guardian. Two things. One, my adopted parents wanted to take all three, but my biological parents would not agree to it. Secondly, what does that even mean “couldn’t bear the trauma hearing the word guardian”? > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I know a lot of adopters will only consider babies. And strike three. I was 4 years old when adopted. Older sis was 9, older brother was 12. I don’t know what your childhood was like, ZPG Zealot, but by all appearances here in this thread, I came out of my adopted experience on a little more even keel than you. Maybe adoption is actually a good thing. But, hey, what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/240 "2016-08-23T19:32:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > So you and the good Professor agree with the Nazi extermination of handicapped children. Those young victims were life unworthy of life. You fit well into a ZPGZ thread. And… we’ve reached the point where I’m now the online crazy. OK, I’m pulling the plug on this thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=13)