# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/261 "2016-08-23T21:32:22Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > How about you not be a retard and don’t put threads where you want to “have a conversation” and “fight ignorance” in The Pit. Retard. This, on the other hand, is a very good point. That was pretty retarded of me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/262 "2016-08-23T21:44:29Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > You know what? I’m mildly pissed off at this point (not at you in particular, though, just in general). So I’ll just say what is on my mind: > > Do you know what I’ve enjoyed in this thread? **ZPG** ’s posts, and trying to understand her perspective. Sometimes a fruit loop is just a fruit loop, but how the fuck am I supposed to know without investigating the matter? Also, it might be a fascinating and interesting fruit loop. I can look at things that that I don’t understand or agree with, and try to see the other side. I don’t think that’s a particularly crazy way of going about things. > > Some posters in this thread have, at times, displayed the same attitude. But as the for the rest of you, pelting tomatoes? How about you knock it off with that shit? It’s fucking distracting. Some of us are trying to have a conversation here. And what the hell are trying to achieve? You’re sure not fighting ignorance. So ignore my advice, fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/263 "2016-08-23T21:45:51Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > So ignore my advice, fine by me. Nah, I just needed to get that out of my system. Your advice is just fine, and will henceforth be taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/264 "2016-08-23T21:50:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > How good for your peace of mind, then, that your preference that adopters be required to announce their status to all and sundry is NOT the law of the land. :dubious: She thinks it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/265 "2016-08-23T21:57:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Please don’t give us reading assignments. If you know of something that the person you’re link is about has said or written that is germane to the subject at hand, feel free to spill it. > > Providing the link for contextual evaluation is appropriate, and appreciated, but the way you dropped it into the thread is neither. There’s enough content in the link I gave to be relevant here, and it supports what I said about it. Someone even quoted some of it earlier. You’re welcome to skip it. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > This would make for an excellent topic in GD. Why don’t you start one? I don’t know that there’s much I’m interested in debating here. My only point was that you can hold a view that newborn infants are not fully human and can be killed in some circumstances, and be celebrated by society. You want to debate whether it’s really possible for a person to be in that position? Or do you want to want to debate the principle itself? If it’s the latter good luck finding someone to debate it with. I mean, you’ve got ZPGZ, but that’s probably about it, here. Peter Singer probably does not post to this board. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/266 "2016-08-23T22:15:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If the baby is not viable without coercing adults to care for it why isn’t infanticide as moral as a late term abortion? It is an interesting concept. We had a Great Debate about the paper that came out a few years ago, which owes a lot to Singer: > **[After-birth abortion: why should the baby live?](https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261.full)** > > Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is... > **[Medical ethicists: sure, it's ok to kill babies. "After-birth abortions".](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=643876)** > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html Ah the logical conclusion of the “freedom to choose”. Hey - if it’s a parasite, you get it out, look at it then squash it, right? Or, as... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/267 "2016-08-23T22:22:36Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > You know what? I’m mildly pissed off at this point (not at you in particular, though, just in general). So I’ll just say what is on my mind. What’s on my mind is that you’ve been in this tree K.I.S.S.I.N.G with ZPG for six pages now, and still seem to be clinging on to the uber-improbable idea that there’s anything to her except twisted-inexcusable-fucked-upness. You now have ZPG cooties, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/268 "2016-08-23T22:25:29Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Some posters in this thread have, at times, displayed the same attitude. But as the for the rest of you, pelting tomatoes? How about you knock it off with that shit? It’s fucking distracting. Some of us are trying to have a conversation here. Hey, you’re the one who decided to throw a tea party in a mosh pit, Fauntleroy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/269 "2016-08-23T22:30:59Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Hey, you’re the one who decided to throw a tea party in a mosh pit, Fauntleroy. Fuck me, that’s harsh. [APPLAUSE] ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/270 "2016-08-23T22:35:25Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > What’s on my mind is that you’ve been in this tree K.I.S.S.I.N.G with ZPG for six pages now, and still seem to be clinging on to the uber-improbable idea that there’s anything to her except twisted-inexcusable-fucked-upness. No, on the contrary. This thread has convinced me that she is, indeed, a flapdoodle. Or just a pretty regular troll. The two are, of course, not mutually exclusive. Not much more to see here, I think. The only thing I’m clinging to is the position that I should be able to engage with a potential flapdoodle in a neutral manner, from a perspective of curiosity, without anyone losing their shit over it. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ll end up agreeing with the flapdoodle on anything under the sun. > [@](#): > > You now have ZPG cooties, BTW. I know. I’ve taken a shower, but it didn’t help. I’ll be taking another one later, in bleach. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/271 "2016-08-23T22:49:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > She equates adoption to non-kin with slavery. There are plenty of victims on the anti-adoption boards that would agree with me. It’s common terminology to talk of seeing their real birth certificates as opposed to their altered slave certificates. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/272 "2016-08-23T22:50:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Thank you so much for yet another non-answer. The answer very clearly before you is, it depends on the circumstances. The trauma women feel from forced pregnancy or others from forced parenthood effects individuals differently. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/273 "2016-08-23T23:03:42Z")
Hey, **ZPG** , a couple of things: This thread will now turn into a pile-on, where people will explain to you, at length, repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that you are a poopy-head. No force in the Verse can stop that, barring a thread closure (which I’ve inquired about by way of report, but no dice so far). Then again, you know that already. If you like that sort of thing, feel free to indulge. On the off chance that you don’t (fat chance, I know): Just get out of the thread. Then, everyone will get bored, and leave. It is entirely your call. There is no third option. Another thing: No matter what world you live in, it’s pretty clear to me that, even by the rules of the your own world, you have some issues. You might want to look into that, for your own safety and well-being. Also, for the safety and well-being of your family and any potential children you might have. Unless you’re just making shit up. In which case, do whatever. Just some friendly advice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/274 "2016-08-23T23:20:11Z")
Get your tongue out that her [del]ass[/del] [del]mouth[/del] ass, will ya? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/275 "2016-08-23T23:26:05Z")
Fuck. I’m going to be known as **ZPG** ’s boyfriend forever after this, aren’t I? You’ll find me in the bar a year from now. “Do they call me MB, the connoisseur of sequential threads? No. Do they call me MB, the master of the drive-by unnecessary dick joke? No. But you chat up \*one \*crazy troll…” ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/276 "2016-08-23T23:31:09Z")
**Martian** this has been pointed out, but this is the wrong forum for exploring the worldview of a flapdoodle _without_ it turning into a pile on. There’s also the fact that this is not the first Pit thread for this particular Pitee, who seems to make friends wherever she goes. I think your expectations were unrealistic at best. Yes, you are now damaged goods. 😛 Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/277 "2016-08-23T23:53:27Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > No, on the contrary. This thread has convinced me that she is, indeed, a flapdoodle. Or just a pretty regular troll. The two are, of course, not mutually exclusive. Not much more to see here, I think. > > **The only thing I’m clinging to is the position that I should be able to engage with a potential flapdoodle in a neutral manner, from a perspective of curiosity, without anyone losing their shit over it.** It doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ll end up agreeing with the flapdoodle on anything under the sun. > > I know. I’ve taken a shower, but it didn’t help. I’ll be taking another one later, in bleach. Is this your first day on the internet? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/278 "2016-08-24T00:22:59Z")
I am by no means taking Peter Singer’s side in anything, but I think [it’s worth considering his context](http://www.petersinger.info/faq/) > [@Peter Singer's FAQ](#): > > You have been quoted as saying: “Killing a defective infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Sometimes it is not wrong at all.” Is that quote accurate? > > It is accurate, but can be misleading if read without an understanding of what I mean by the term “person” (which is discussed in Practical Ethics, from which that quotation is taken). I use the term “person” to refer to a being who is capable of anticipating the future, of having wants and desires for the future. As I have said in answer to the previous question, I think that it is generally a greater wrong to kill such a being than it is to kill a being that has no sense of existing over time. Newborn human babies have no sense of their own existence over time. So killing a newborn baby is never equivalent to killing a person, that is, a being who wants to go on living. That doesn’t mean that it is not almost always a terrible thing to do. It is, but that is because most infants are loved and cherished by their parents, and to kill an infant is usually to do a great wrong to its parents. > > Sometimes, perhaps because the baby has a serious disability, parents think it better that their newborn infant should die. Many doctors will accept their wishes, to the extent of not giving the baby life-supporting medical treatment. That will often ensure that the baby dies. My view is different from this, only to the extent that if a decision is taken, by the parents and doctors, that it is better that a baby should die, I believe it should be possible to carry out that decision, not only by withholding or withdrawing life-support – which can lead to the baby dying slowly from dehydration or from an infection - but also by taking active steps to end the baby’s life swiftly and humanely. > > What about a normal baby? Doesn’t your theory of personhood imply that parents can kill a healthy, normal baby that they do not want, because it has no sense of the future? > > Most parents, fortunately, love their children and would be horrified by the idea of killing it. And that’s a good thing, of course. We want to encourage parents to care for their children, and help them to do so. Moreover, although a normal newborn baby has no sense of the future, and therefore is not a person, that does not mean that it is all right to kill such a baby. It only means that the wrong done to the infant is not as great as the wrong that would be done to a person who was killed. But in our society there are many couples who would be very happy to love and care for that child. Hence even if the parents do not want their own child, it would be wrong to kill it. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/279 "2016-08-24T00:24:03Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Thanks for Godwinizing. In fairness to **billfish678** , you are actually crazier than Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/280 "2016-08-24T01:20:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I am by no means taking Peter Singer’s side in anything, but I think [it’s worth considering his context](http://www.petersinger.info/faq/) His context leads to this outcome. [Life unworthy of life - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_unworthy_of_life) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=15)