# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/301 "2016-08-24T14:19:37Z")
I said “in my defense”, but scratch that. It’s clearly the opposite. Let’s make that: What the fuck was I thinking there? It’s slowly sinking in now. I need some fresh air. Right now, it feels like I was in the Stanford prison experiment, or something. Only I was the one running the experiment. Yeah. That got weird. If I hurt anyone, I am truly sorry. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/302 "2016-08-24T14:21:20Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I’m very sorry that you got that impression. I really don’t have any sympathy whatsoever for infanticide. If it’s not too much trouble, could you point to what I said that gave you the idea? I mean, if it was something specific, and not just the whole discussion? Just so I might know how not to bollix up so much in the future. No, you are so unjudgmental and protective of [del]our[/del] your friend, that it is obvious to all. Smitten, perhaps. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, though, I like you both ways. Let’s see: > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Some posters in this thread have, at times, displayed the same attitude. But as the for the rest of you, pelting tomatoes? How about you knock it off with that shit? It seems quite different from the invitation in your OP: > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Therefore: Let’s take that derail here, where we can mud wrestle more freely. Sure, you aren’t openly calling for infanticide, but you’re sympathetic: > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK. I guess we’re keeping “advocating infanticide as preferable to adoption” on the list, for now. Although we’re adjusting it down to “adoption by strangers, as commonly practiced”. **As far as I can tell, adoption by relatives, a trusted guardian or a good institution is still considered preferable to infanticide by ZPG. See? More benign. There are nuances to consider here. It’s not all so binary.** > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > For you and me (at least in **many** cases), child murdering is child murdering, full stop. But \*\*ZPG \*\*is clearly making distinctions where we aren’t. I don’t think we should simply ignore that. Again, that would be missing an elephant in the room. > > Another thing: Motives often matter. Killing your child (or someone else) out of love, because the alternative is perceived as worse than death, is not necessarily the same as doing so from a point of indifference or malevolence. Here’s what \*\*ZPG \*\*is saying: > > **Isn’t the motive here wanting to spare the child from what is perceived as a worse fate?** all my bolding. If it were a case where the person were avocating killing a baby quickly rather than let him/her be tortured to death, you may have a point, but you know fucking well that **zpg** is calling for death rather than have an unknown person adopt. Someone like, say **Spice**. You have absolutely no problem calling out people for insulting your girlfriend, but cannot really muster a condemnation for killing a baby. Go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/303 "2016-08-24T14:38:13Z")
For those who wonder why I take the subject of infanticide particularly personally, perhaps the following can help explain. In exactly four weeks from today, it will have been 10 years to the day that I held my dying baby son in my hands. His labored breathing growing more and more faint. His mother begged him to breath while his father bawled in his stead. We pleaded that he last for even a few more precious moments while I performed a family ritual which welcomed him into our clan. I finished and he was no more. His still body lie there, unmoving but not unloved. It look years to learn to live after that. Years. **z** , you simply are a monster. I don’t care if you are simply insane or a troll. It doesn’t matter. You are simply evil. I actually don’t wish bodily harm on you. Rather something worse. I hope that some day you will realize what an evil person you are. And **Martin**. Go. to. hell. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/304 "2016-08-24T14:41:19Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I said “in my defense”, but scratch that. It’s clearly the opposite. Let’s make that: What the fuck was I thinking there? > > It’s slowly sinking in now. I need some fresh air. Right now, it feels like I was in the Stanford prison experiment, or something. Only I was the one running the experiment. > > Yeah. That got weird. If I hurt anyone, I am truly sorry. You’re fine. You’re overthinking this. Let it die, everyone will forget eventually. Unless you have found yourself repeatedly defending the indefensible, it’s probably not a thing. It’s hard sometimes not to take things personally. Some wounds are gaping raw and never heal. I lost my unborn child two years ago. The pain of loss is the place where **TokyoBayer** is coming from, I’m guessing. Certain viewpoints have a way of striking at nerves. On preview: Nailed it. Hugs to you, **TokyoBayer**. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/305 "2016-08-24T14:47:03Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > And **Martin**. Go. to. hell. Fair enough. I am very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/306 "2016-08-24T14:50:08Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It’s hard sometimes not to take things personally. Some wounds are gaping raw and never heal. I lost my unborn child two years ago. The pain of loss is the place where **TokyoBayer** is coming from, I’m guessing. Certain viewpoints have a way of striking at nerves. And to you, too, **Spice Weasel** : I am very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/307 "2016-08-24T14:56:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, no it doesn’t. > > Singer, you gotta remember, is a hardcore vegan. He thinks killing a mouse is a terribly unethical act. So when he suggests that sometimes killing an infant isn’t as bad as killing a grown-ass adult–when he even seems to suggest that sometimes it’s not as bad as killing a grown-ass adult **mouse** –that’s what you gotta remember. He’s a dude that thinks killing a grown-ass adult mouse is terrible. > > If you try to adopt his relative value of evil without adopting his benchmark, you end up saying, “I think killing mice is fine, and he’s saying killing a baby isn’t as bad as killing a mouse, MONSTER!” But that leaves out a crucial detail of his argument. > > When I read his business about when infanticide is okay, it’s got a very important caveat: **it’s okay when you’re planning on denying the infant lifesaving care anyway**. In these circumstances, mainstream medical care apparently allows you to give the infant a slow death by dehydration, and Singer says it’d be better to give the infant a quick, painless death instead. > > It’s an appalling thing to contemplate, but it’s very different from reading some sort of eugenic infanticide into his words. I don’t agree. Based on your quote of his words up-thread, he seems to believe the only objection to killing an infant is not because of any inherent value of that child’s life, but because of the impact on other people, parents and other potential caregivers. So it’s not as if it’s “_not as bad as killing a mouse but killing a mouse is really really bad_”, but it’s on a different level entirely. The mouse’s life has inherent value but the infant’s life apparently does not. Even if the above is incorrect, there’s another aspect to it as well. What he’s doing is disputing the conventionally understood and accepted basis for opposition to infanticide. What you’re saying is that he’s substituted another basis for opposition to infanticide. But that alternative basis which is a) not widely shared, and b) logically independent of his position on the currently accepted basis for the opposition. So he’s urging that society jettison its basis for opposition to infanticide, while his concurrent argument that society accept some sort of other basis is not compelling. It’s as if a guy says “_There’s nothing wrong with killing people on moral grounds, but I’m opposed to it anyway because it messes up the economy_”, or something like that. If that’s less abhorrent and damaging than just saying “There’s _nothing wrong with killing people on moral grounds_”, it’s not by much. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/308 "2016-08-24T15:10:40Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I said “in my defense”, but scratch that. It’s clearly the opposite. Let’s make that: What the fuck was I thinking there? > > It’s slowly sinking in now. I need some fresh air. Right now, it feels like I was in the Stanford prison experiment, or something. Only I was the one running the experiment. > > Yeah. That got weird. If I hurt anyone, I am truly sorry. Well here’s my theory. You started the thread as a forum in which to mock ZPGZ, but got criticized in several early posts over your passive-aggressive approach. So you reacted by turning it into a serious attempt to understand ZPGZ etc. (beginning in post #9). And then when that in turn got heavily criticized, you decided to rejoin the crowd yet again (beginning in post #248). Speculation, of course. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/309 "2016-08-24T15:45:41Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Yeah, it got out of hand. I didn’t realize what was going on. > > Damn it. This might actually be bad. It’s a level of whack-a-doodle way above my pay grade, and I was still playing around. Yeah. That should not have happened. I’ll need to look into that. Not to worry. You are just another asshole who thinks he knows better…only to find out you are just an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/310 "2016-08-24T15:57:49Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > Not to worry. You are just another asshole who thinks he knows better…only to find out you are just an asshole. Could be. As I said earlier, if everyone is calling a person an asshole, maybe that person really an asshole. So, I will apply that logic to myself, too. Data point noted. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well here’s my theory. > > You started the thread as a forum in which to mock ZPGZ, but got criticized in several early posts over your passive-aggressive approach. So you reacted by turning it into a serious attempt to understand ZPGZ etc. (beginning in post #9). And then when that in turn got heavily criticized, you decided to rejoin the crowd yet again (beginning in post #248). > > Speculation, of course. Something like that sounds reasonable. Let’s try this: I started out by taking my social cues from the majority, mocking **ZPG**. I got accused of bullying, and of being part of a bullying culture. So, instead, I tried taking the side of the person being bullied. Because being accused of bullying made me feel uncomfortable. Then that got criticized, too, and now that was uncomfortable. So I flip-flopped back to joining the majority. In this reading, I’m just a jackass who can’t stand feeling a little bit uncomfortable, and who instantly cries “joke!” whenever my true colors are revealed and criticized. I’m actually an asshole who holds a number of disgusting opinions, but I don’t have the courage to stand up for what I really believe when the heat is on. Well, I can’t disprove any of that, at least not off the bat. Only my future behavior can ever convince those who thinks that of anything else. Some of it might be true, specifically the “doesn’t like feeling uncomfortable” part. As for the “harboring disgusting opinions, but being too scared to show my true colors” part, everyone will have to make up their own minds. If someone wants to hash that out with me in another thread at any point, I’m cool with that. Although, I will note the following. You said (my emphasis): > [@](#): > > So you reacted by turning it into a **serious attempt** to understand ZPGZ etc. **(beginning in post #9)**. But in [post #9](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19571694&postcount=9), I said this: > [@](#): > > Someone suggested that she just thinks that she lives in such a world, but I think a much more likely scenario is that she actually does, and we’re communicating with her through an interdimensional portal, which has opened up somewhere on the intertubes. Neither side knows about the portal or the existence of the other universe, hence all these misunderstandings. I really hope no took that seriously. I thought I was signalling “joke”, “I’m goofing off” and “what follows is an attempt to understand **ZPG** , but, please, don’t take all of this literally” there with giant flags, sirens and billboards. Either that, or I’m clearly a lunatic. Basically: “Either this is a joke thread, at least to an extent, or I’m literally nuts. I’m cool with you taking it either way. However, in this thread, don’t take anything I might say personally, or too literally.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/311 "2016-08-24T16:02:07Z")
I thought you wanted this to just drop. If so, just let it go already and quit yammering on and on. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/312 "2016-08-24T16:05:27Z")
[Dig up, stupid.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b97zJxKEqAk) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/313 "2016-08-24T16:07:20Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > And to you, too, **Spice Weasel** : I am very sorry. No skin off my nose. I’m morbidly fascinated by **ZPG** but I tend not to take her views personally. The main thing that sticks in my craw is the classism, honestly, because that’s a type of bigotry that a lot of people actually have. Infanticide as an alternative to adoption is so horrifically out there you can’t really take anyone’s opinion seriously after that. I’m actually glad this thread was started because I’ve been burning with curiosity about how she reconciles zero population growth values with having such a hard-line stance against adoption. She answered my question here - her solution to unwanted children is infanticide. I mean, what do you even do with that? Bullying is a real thing. But sometimes what looks like bullying is just a bunch of people individually and justifiably reacting out of their own pain, or contempt that is driven by an appeal to basic human decency. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/314 "2016-08-24T16:12:11Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > In this reading, I’m just a jackass who can’t stand feeling a little bit uncomfortable, and who instantly cries “joke!” whenever my true colors are revealed and criticized. I’m actually an asshole who holds a number of disgusting opinions, but I don’t have the courage to stand up for what I really believe when the heat is on. Well, I can’t disprove any of that, at least not off the bat. FTR, the “disgusting opinion” aspect is not part of my theory. What I’m speculating is that you were trying to understand and semi-respect these opinions because it initially seemed like a more popular thing to do, not because you genuinely had any respect for them. But when the opinions started to actually be associated with you, and you were suspected of harboring some affinity for them, you backed off. > [@](#): > > I really hope no took that seriously. I thought I was signalling “joke”, “I’m goofing off” and “what follows is an attempt to understand **ZPG** , but, please, don’t take all of this literally” there with giant flags, sirens and billboards. Either that, or I’m clearly a lunatic. > > Basically: "Either this is a joke thread, at least to an extent, or I’m literally nuts. I don’t think so. Joke and serious opinion are not either/or, and people express serious opinions in the form of jokes. Obviously mention of “interdimensional portal” was a joke, but it appeared to be an attempt to make the point that she lives in an isolated sub-culture in which her approach was normal. In post #26, you reiterated the exact same theme but without any humor. It doesn’t seem to me that the overall point was intended as a joke. I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/315 "2016-08-24T16:19:59Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > That is the sense one gets, isn’t it? Whatever is going on, it’s not a cultural thing. Or, even if you take all possible cultural factors into account, it’s not about that. It’s a seemingly complete lack of empathy thing, combined with an anger and bitterness thing. I don’t think \*\*ZPG \*\*has said a nice thing to me or anyone else in the entire thread. Or, for that matter, ever. Or shown any concern or consideration for anyone else’s viewpoint. Never mind feelings. > > She gives me the total creeps. I’m still not sure if it’s a case of troll, or nuttier than a squirrel’s breakfast. Or both. Even if she’s making things up facts-wise, I’m not sure that you can invent a personality that abrasive and chilling. It’s like something out of a horror movie. > > I hope it’s all an act, otherwise I’m honestly worried that she might be a danger to herself and others. > > So, yeah. Fascinating. The attitude of valuing an fetus or an infant over a adult sentient woman chilling. It total gives me the creeps. Too many people on the Dope seem to worship children, especially babies which quite honestly don’t even seem human to me (the ability to think and communicate is what separates us from animals, not the ability to breathe and shit). There’s no such empathy for adults and the problems unwanted babies produce in their lives and the attitude that a mature adult ready and able to contribute to the good humanity should sacrifice everything for a baby that’s just a possibility is something I find very horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/316 "2016-08-24T16:20:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What I’m speculating is that you were trying to understand and semi-respect these opinions because it initially seemed like a more popular thing to do, not because you genuinely had any respect for them. Well, it was initially just because I found her strange antics hilarious, and I though it might be fun to put my pants on my head and goof off. I thought that it might provide some entertainment. As I said, I didn’t know about the infanticide stuff at that point. I’m not laughing anymore, though. Anyway. Dropping this now, as suggested. Thanks, all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/317 "2016-08-24T16:26:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The attitude of valuing an fetus or an infant over a adult sentient woman chilling. It total gives me the creeps. Too many people on the Dope seem to worship children, especially babies which quite honestly don’t even seem human to me (the ability to think and communicate is what separates us from animals, not the ability to breathe and shit). There’s no such empathy for adults and the problems unwanted babies produce in their lives and the attitude that a mature adult ready and able to contribute to the good humanity should sacrifice everything for a baby that’s just a possibility is something I find very horrifying. Have you ever had a child that survived? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/318 "2016-08-24T16:33:42Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > For those who wonder why I take the subject of infanticide particularly personally, perhaps the following can help explain. > > In exactly four weeks from today, it will have been 10 years to the day that I held my dying baby son in my hands. > > His labored breathing growing more and more faint. His mother begged him to breath while his father bawled in his stead. > > We pleaded that he last for even a few more precious moments while I performed a family ritual which welcomed him into our clan. > > I finished and he was no more. His still body lie there, unmoving but not unloved. It look years to learn to live after that. Years. > > **z** , you simply are a monster. I don’t care if you are simply insane or a troll. It doesn’t matter. You are simply evil. > > I actually don’t wish bodily harm on you. Rather something worse. I hope that some day you will realize what an evil person you are. > > And **Martin**. Go. to. hell. In other words because you had a tragic experience and lost a baby you loved everyone should worship infants and value them above everything on earth. As sad as your experience with a dying infant was, I don’t doubt it was horrifying and painful to you, try holding the hand of a twenty-year old screaming in pain and eventually dying from the complications of self-induced abortion. Been there. Done that too often. Watch the life drain out of a brilliant, talented artist as she bleeds to death from a pregnancy that should not have been allowed to continue. then watch the infant her life was sacrificed for grow up to be rapists gang-banger. See a young man with the intelligence and leadership abilities to be a future President be ground to dust by the toll of working two minimum-wage jobs to support a baby he hates and then eventually have to call the police when you find his body swinging from a rope in the family garage. That’s the reality baby worshipping gives us. It doesn’t improve the world for infants. When there are too many of them, they quickly lose their value. It does make life hell for adults however. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/319 "2016-08-24T16:37:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Have you ever had a child that survived? I have no desire to physically give birth. The whole process grosses me out and I have been watching and assisting midwives with natural childbirths since I was a teenager. I have a four nieces and five nephews in my immediate family and two god daughters. I would lay down my life for them. And I would kill to protect them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/320 "2016-08-24T16:41:22Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have no desire to physically give birth. Good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=17)