# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/461 "2016-08-26T16:08:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s [**stuff** White people like](https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/). Now sadly inactive. I agree that is sad. The world needs more racist stuff on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/462 "2016-08-26T16:25:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > FTR, the difference between “_X cannot possibly be rational_” and “_there’s no point in discussing rationality because anything can be thought to be rational_” is not pedantry. That wasn’t what I found pedantic. Anyway, my approach to this was all wrong so it’s irrelevant. If I’d been thinking clearly I wouldn’t have ever mentioned my views on the emotional drivers behind logical decision-making. [QUOTE=Fotheringay-Phipps] I appreciate that you’re a popular poster on this board, and it can be tempting to ride that wave. But it’s a bad habit to get into, IMO. You might one day find yourself in a different dynamic where that won’t suffice. [/QUOTE] It sounds like you’re implying I attempt to divert attention from poor arguments by playing the Nice Card in hopes people will fight my battles for me. Do I have that right? You’re not the first person to accuse me of this and won’t be the last. I never asked anyone to rush to my defense. People may draw their own conclusions. It’s not rationality that sticks in my craw, just the annoying things that often come with it, including pedantry, getting bogged down in semantics, attitudes of arrogance and superiority, and an apparent belief that every discussion is an argument to be won. I’m not accusing you of all those things, just saying it was at the heart of my rant about philosophy. But it’s a rant about a thing I genuinely love, and I really didn’t intend to disparage the whole of it. [QUOTE=Fotheringay Phipps] I couldn’t say for sure in the specific case of ZPGZ. What I’m saying is that reason could lead one to beliefs that many consider shocking, e.g. infanticide. I cited Peter Singer for this purpose. So you can’t conclude that ZPGZ must be trolling or mentally unhinged merely by observing that she professes these shocking beliefs, as many here seemed to be doing. [/QUOTE] There’s the misunderstanding. I thought you were implying that this applies is in the specific case of ZPG, and I think her views fall more under the category of ‘‘rationalizing’’ than ‘‘drawing shocking conclusions through a system of logic.’’ I otherwise agree with your statement, and think it is an interesting point. On the subject of trolling, I would not claim the shocking beliefs in and of themselves are sufficient to call someone a troll. But there is a precedent on this board for banning posters who are sincere in their beliefs but apparently are expressing them to piss people off. I took her off-the-cuff remark to **Martian** about the onions to be such an example, even if I did find it amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/463 "2016-08-26T16:35:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Oh yeah, he reads it all the time. I keep telling him he needs to join, so he and Bricker can argue the finer points of law. He says he doesn’t care to debate people all the time. Outside of work he doesn’t care to socialize with non-Roma culture that much. He finds it too much of a hassle. Whatever, I like learning about how other people think even if I disagree with them. Does your husband agree with you on these views that we perceive as extreme? Do you view your beliefs about childbirth/infanticide/handshakes/etc. as part of Roma culture? Submitted for consideration… my husband comes from a very large Italian family, and part of their culture is naming every firstborn son or daughter after the grandparent. So my husband is one of eight people in his family with the same name, and there are about as many girls who also have their grandmother’s name. They’ve always expressed this as ‘‘It’s an Italian thing.’’ Then we made a trip to Italy, and nobody there could wrap their head around this tradition. I therefore assumed it was just a _family_ thing. Upon moving back to this region, though, it is controlled by several prominent Italian families and I have seen many follow this same tradition. Which leads me to conclude, it is an Italian, very narrowly _regional_ thing - in this case, limited to Italian immigrants in the tri-county area. **BigT** and others have suggested that there’s no basis for believing your views are a part of mainstream Roma culture. Is it possible that not all of Roma cultures shares your views? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/464 "2016-08-26T16:35:46Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Of course, I realize it’s satire, but satire is sometimes an amazingly brilliant way to communicate (think Swift’s Modest Proposal).\*\* I am pro-choice because I believe women should have control over their bodies \*\*however we as a society have always recognized the freedom to operate your body as you see fit ends when it compromises someone right to operate theirs. You may swing your fist however you like, but society has a right to make it illegal for you to hit someone else’s nose or their property. As I have said repeatedly before. In an ideal world forcing abortions or murdering pregnant women shouldn’t be an issue because it would be possible for a man in an unwanted pregnancy to free himself from any legal obligation to an unwanted child (just as a woman can free herself from the legal obligation by having a safe abortion). But we don’t have that now and many people (often the same people that would think forcing a woman to continue incubating a fetus against her will which is surprising) seem vehemently opposed to the idea; therefore, the available solutions to the problem of unwanted pregnancy get much nastier. I personally do not want a world where the solution to an unwanted pregnancy is killing the mother, but I am willing to acknowledge that in some cases it may well be the most just option. (My bold) Just a note. YOU ARE NOT PRO-CHOICE. You have advocated forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will, or killing her if necessary. That makes you PRO ABORTION, NOT pro choice. You don’t think a woman has the right to decide what to do with her own body, unless that means abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/465 "2016-08-26T16:38:03Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I took her off-the-cuff remark to **Martian** about the onions to be such an example, even if I did find it amusing. What? That post was hilarious. It was just her making a damned fool of herself. It’s probably the single one post of hers that I’ve read that I wouldn’t suspect of having been intended to piss someone off. It was just an idiot trying to save face, with all the elegance of a moose falling down a flight of stairs. And I know she’ll do it again if someone pokes at her. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/466 "2016-08-26T16:44:28Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > (My bold) > > Just a note. > > YOU ARE NOT PRO-CHOICE. You have advocated forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will, or killing her if necessary. That makes you PRO ABORTION, NOT pro choice. You don’t think a woman has the right to decide what to do with her own body, unless that means abortion. As long as she is not using her body to compel someone else into parenthood, physically or financially, she can do whatever she wants with her body. Once she decides to take a percentage of someone’s livelihood for 18 years without their consent, the situation is no longer about just her body. The right to do what you want with your own body has limits. People are not free to use their bodies to commit crimes against others and the greater society recognizes the right to control the use of a person’s body in those cases. Most of us also respect an individual’s right defend themselves from physical violence, enslavement, or theft even if it means resorting to violence. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/467 "2016-08-26T16:50:06Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > What? That post was hilarious. It was just her making a damned fool of herself. It’s probably the single one post of hers that I’ve read that I wouldn’t suspect of having been intended to piss someone off. It was just an idiot trying to save face, with all the elegance of a moose falling down a flight of stairs. > > And I know she’ll do it again if someone pokes at her. I do get the impression you’re here for the same reason I am - morbid curiosity. She doesn’t push my emotional outrage buttons the way she does other Dopers. I mean, I find her conclusions abhorrent, just in a very matter of fact way. I do think it raises some interesting questions about why some of us distinguish so heavily between killing a helpless creature that is not born and killing one who is born. **ZPG** , would it be accurate to say you don’t think people should have a right to have children? Do you favor forced sterilization? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/468 "2016-08-26T16:51:48Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Does your husband agree with you on these views that we perceive as extreme? Do you view your beliefs about childbirth/infanticide/handshakes/etc. as part of Roma culture? > > Submitted for consideration… my husband comes from a very large Italian family, and part of their culture is naming every firstborn son or daughter after the grandparent. So my husband is one of eight people in his family with the same name, and there are about as many girls who also have their grandmother’s name. They’ve always expressed this as ‘‘It’s an Italian thing.’’ > > Then we made a trip to Italy, and nobody there could wrap their head around this tradition. I therefore assumed it was just a _family_ thing. Upon moving back to this region, though, it is controlled by several prominent Italian families and I have seen many follow this same tradition. Which leads me to conclude, it is an Italian, very narrowly _regional_ thing - in this case, limited to Italian immigrants in the tri-county area. > > **BigT** and others have suggested that there’s no basis for believing your views are a part of mainstream Roma culture. Is it possible that not all of Roma cultures shares your views? Sexual segregation, sexual purity, and the importance of the family have and will always be big parts of Roma culture (or it will cease to be Roma culture). It would be like Judaism deciding to start sacrificing to idols for that to change. A major part of why I decided to marry my husband (and actually love him as opposed to viewing him as a sex partner I get along with) is how much our opinions agree on so many subjects. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/469 "2016-08-26T16:54:10Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > **ZPG** , would it be accurate to say you don’t think people should have a right to have children? Do you favor forced sterilization? I think that’s something like the death penalty and nations declaring war. People have the right to have children, but if they misuse that right it can and should be taken away from them. There are times when forced sterilization may be appropriate, but we have to be very careful about when, where, and how it’s done because of the potential of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/470 "2016-08-26T17:14:37Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Oh please the logical conclusion was right in your face, your poor reading comprehension skills not withstanding, the entire time. See, I thought of another possible conclusion from what you said. My DNA is defective, so it should be taken out of the gene pool, right? That could also be taken to mean that I should kill myself, not the woman. I mean, with DNA this defective, I’m probably too stupid not to knock up more women in the future. So you might be advocating murder-suicide, not just murder. Or there is some ingenious get-out clause that I’ve missed (being stupid, and all) that will limit this to either just murder, just suicide, both, or neither. So, where were we? Oh, yeah, the pregnant woman is bolting for the door. Now I have a few options: 1. Let her get away, then pay the child support. 2. Let her get away, then kill myself. 3. Shoot her (center mass), then go on living. 4. Shoot her (center mass), then kill myself. Any thoughts on that? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/471 "2016-08-26T17:28:56Z")
Also, I’m thinking of more fascinating subjects for this thread. You know, Trolly (can I call you Trolly?), now that I know for certain that I don’t need to worry about taking you seriously or hurting your feelings, there are so many things we could talk about. Hey, you know that thing from earlier about babies being like non-rational animals? Well, we eat non-rational animals (that is, anyone who isn’t a vegetarian does). Does that make it OK to eat babies? I mean, let’s set aside the killing thing for now. Let’s say that I found a dead baby (for instance, in someone’s underwear drawer). Would it be OK to cook it and eat it? Would it taste like chicken? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/472 "2016-08-26T17:53:23Z")
Dude. Go for a walk. Quit obsessing and giving her the attention she so obviously lives for. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/473 "2016-08-26T18:00:51Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Also, I’m thinking of more fascinating subjects for this thread. > > You know, Trolly (can I call you Trolly?), now that I know for certain that I don’t need to worry about taking you seriously or hurting your feelings, there are so many things we could talk about. Hey, you know that thing from earlier about babies being like non-rational animals? Well, we eat non-rational animals (that is, anyone who isn’t a vegetarian does). Does that make it OK to eat babies? > > I mean, let’s set aside the killing thing for now. Let’s say that I found a dead baby (for instance, in someone’s underwear drawer). Would it be OK to cook it and eat it? Would it taste like chicken? You can’t take a baby out of someone else’s underwear drawer and eat it without offering to share with the host. Don’t you know anything about etiquette? I swear, you dopers are the only ones I have ever met that didn’t know this rule. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/474 "2016-08-26T18:23:39Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Oh yeah, he reads it all the time. I keep telling him he needs to join, so he and Bricker can argue the finer points of law. He says he doesn’t care to debate people all the time. Outside of work he doesn’t care to socialize with non-Roma culture that much. He finds it too much of a hassle… This is unfortunate. If nothing else, you might be subject to less antipathy if there were anyone else here who could corroborate your claims that your beliefs are consistent with Roma culture. I haven’t been posting here that long, relatively speaking, but I lurked for several years before I registered, and I recall a thread in which your claims were repudiated by another poster who identified himself on the board as Roma. IIRC, that thread also contained links to sites which had descriptions of Roma culture that were not consistent with your own. I’m not overly invested in whether you’re an according-to-Hoyle troll, or if your beliefs are actually sincere, although I don’t think I’d want the best defense that anyone could make about my character to be some distillation of, “Well, she’s not actually a troll if she really believes that wack-ass shit she be talking about.” If you have a genuine interest in fighting ignorance (and you may not; you’re certainly not obliged to), it would be useful if you could find anybody to back up what you say. You have made some fairly incredulous and implausible claims about your culture, and then hide behind them like a shield when scrutinized, responding to challenges with what amounts to, “I can’t back up what I say, but I’m Roma, and you should take my word for it that this is what Roma believe.” And frankly, to paraphrase the American philosopher Shawn Carter, we don’t believe you, you need more people. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/475 "2016-08-26T19:36:51Z")
I could be wrong, but I don’t recall ZPGZ explicitly claiming that her beliefs are common among Roma people. She sometimes sort-of _grounds them_ in Roma heritage and culture - see e.g. post #468 - but I don’t recall her ever claiming explicitly that Roma people commonly regard offering a handshake to a woman as equivalent of rape, or view infanticide as acceptable, for example. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/476 "2016-08-26T20:08:10Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I agree that is sad. The world needs more racist stuff on the internet. [I know](https://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/), right? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/477 "2016-08-26T20:08:57Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > (My bold) > > Just a note. > > YOU ARE NOT PRO-CHOICE. You have advocated forcing a woman to have an abortion against her will, or killing her if necessary. That makes you PRO ABORTION, NOT pro choice. You don’t think a woman has the right to decide what to do with her own body, unless that means abortion. She’s pro choice for the person making that choice correct? Why can’t other folks have the choice? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/478 "2016-08-26T20:13:14Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I do think it raises some interesting questions about why some of us distinguish so heavily between killing a helpless creature that is not born and killing one who is born. Where should the line be drawn? > **[What’s Wrong With “After-Birth Abortion”?](https://slate.com/technology/2012/03/after-birth-abortion-the-pro-choice-case-for-infanticide.html)** > > Just when you thought the religious right couldn’t get any crazier, with its personhood amendments and its attacks on contraception, here comes the... It’s just a matter of packaging the idea properly. Which is one reason pro-choice is called pro-choice and not pro-abortion or pro-infanticide. Choice is a much more positive sounding word. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/479 "2016-08-26T20:36:39Z")
On a similar note, the North Koreans are upset about US/SK military exercises taking place now, and announced that they might conduct a “[preemptive retaliatory strike](http://kcnawatch.co/newstream/1471821350-472854152/spokesman-for-kpa-general-staff-clarifies-principled-stand-on-nuclear-war-drill-against-dprk/)”. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/480 "2016-08-26T20:53:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I could be wrong, but I don’t recall ZPGZ explicitly claiming that her beliefs are common among Roma people. She sometimes sort-of _grounds them_ in Roma heritage and culture - see e.g. post #468 - but I don’t recall her ever claiming explicitly that Roma people commonly regard offering a handshake to a woman as equivalent of rape, or view infanticide as acceptable, for example. A’ight then… :dubious: There may, indeed, be some form of subtle yet substantive distinction between “Sexual segregation, sexual purity, and the importance of the family have and will always be big parts of Roma culture (or it will cease to be Roma culture)” and “explicitly claiming that her beliefs are common among Roma people,” but that’s not a delineation that you’re going to get _me_ to engage you in. So… cheers, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=25)