# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/121 "2016-08-22T23:55:22Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Well, that’s kind of what I was wondering. So would I need witnesses in these situations? If nothing happened, and the woman isn’t going to bother with filing a false rape charge, why would I need to worry about being accused of something? > > If these situations don’t call for me to have witnesses to prevent accusations, what situations do? Could you give me a better example? Your second statement is my opinion of all the male worrying that sometimes occurs on the Dope that men will be victimized by all these women filing false rape charges. For centuries women have been told to avoid sexual harassment and victimization by having witnesses to their behavior, so that’s my response to men who are afraid they will be victim to women filing false rape charges: “If it bothers you so much, just avoid being alone with women.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/122 "2016-08-22T23:57:24Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > I was in London Heathrow a few weeks ago. A woman (a complete stranger to me) was sitting across from me in the gate area. She had earbuds in listening to music, with her eyes closed. She was alone, as in no one was traveling with her, as was I. > > While we were sitting there, I noticed that her bookbag had partially toppled over, and her passport and wallet (or whatever is the female word for wallet-y thing) had fallen out. > > My choices were (a) ignore it entirely, (b) try to put the items back in her bag, in which case someone may have thought I was attempting theft, or (c) get her attention. > > I chose (c). > > I tried getting her attention audibly, “Excuse me” or something like that. No dice, earbuds in, and she was jamming. So I :eek: touched her on the arm, right above her wrist. Kind of a light tap. She immediately popped her eyes open, took out the earbuds and I pointed out what I wanted to call to her attention. She was appreciative and friendly, and we chatted for about 10 minutes until we both turned our attention back to something else. For me, that was my Kindle, for her, it was her earbuds. > > So, **ZPG ZEALOT** , you can see this coming, I’m sure. Was I wrong to touch this woman as I did, uninvited? Was she a “whore” for not only not rejecting my touch, and not being offended by it, but also for being willing to engage me in conversation? > > Was I willing to touch this strange woman because,as a man of obviously low morals, I somehow assumed it would be okay? > > In your worldview, what should I have done? You should have gone to the nearest drinks vendor, picked up a straw and a few bits of paper, and returned to pelt her with spit wads until you got her attention. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/123 "2016-08-23T00:05:44Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Fun fact: I’ve reported other people for harassing you in non-Pit threads. Sometimes you say things about the importance of consent to physical contact and respecting other people’s boundaries, and our society’s tendency to minimize sexual violence, and I’m like, okay, she has a point. People like to hijack threads with dumb handshake rape jokes and it’s basically bullying to my mind. FWIW, the handshake jokes are pretty fucking stupid, and people should knock it off with them. She doesn’t want her hand shook by a dude, that’s her right, don’t flip her shit about that. It’s everything else that she deserves a lot of shit for, from slapping a teenager to agreeing that murder is an appropriate response to a man who tries to shake a woman’s hand to calling people who adopt kids monsters to making up bullshit stories about the thousands of people she’s talked to about saying “congratulations” to a bride. But her decision not to shake a dude’s hand? Whatever, leave her alone about that one specific thing. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/124 "2016-08-23T00:05:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For centuries women have been told to avoid sexual harassment and victimization by having witnesses to their behavior, so that’s my response to men who are afraid they will be victim to women filing false rape charges: “If it bothers you so much, just avoid being alone with women.” OK. Well, as it stands, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I haven’t been accused of anything yet, and I would be very surprised if I ever was. So, you’re cool with me continuing being alone with women? No issues there? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/125 "2016-08-23T00:07:04Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > I was in London Heathrow a few weeks ago. A woman (a complete stranger to me) was sitting across from me in the gate area. She had earbuds in listening to music, with her eyes closed. She was alone, as in no one was traveling with her, as was I. > > While we were sitting there, I noticed that her bookbag had partially toppled over, and her passport and wallet (or whatever is the female word for wallet-y thing) had fallen out. > > My choices were (a) ignore it entirely, (b) try to put the items back in her bag, in which case someone may have thought I was attempting theft, or (c) get her attention. > > I chose (c). > > I tried getting her attention audibly, “Excuse me” or something like that. No dice, earbuds in, and she was jamming. So I :eek: touched her on the arm, right above her wrist. Kind of a light tap. She immediately popped her eyes open, took out the earbuds and I pointed out what I wanted to call to her attention. She was appreciative and friendly, and we chatted for about 10 minutes until we both turned our attention back to something else. For me, that was my Kindle, for her, it was her earbuds. > > So, **ZPG ZEALOT** , you can see this coming, I’m sure. Was I wrong to touch this woman as I did, uninvited? Was she a “whore” for not only not rejecting my touch, and not being offended by it, but also for being willing to engage me in conversation? > > Was I willing to touch this strange woman because,as a man of obviously low morals, I somehow assumed it would be okay? > > In your worldview, what should I have done? You could have written a note and held it against her hand. The touch of just about any inanimate object against the her wrist would have produced the same reaction as your hand, so you could have used that. You could have asked another woman to get her attention. I don’t know enough about either you or the woman to comment on your morals. It’s was benign social encounter, but not everything in life is. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/126 "2016-08-23T00:08:28Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK. Well, as it stands, it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I haven’t been accused of anything yet, and I would be very surprised if I ever was. So, you’re cool with me continuing being alone with women? No issues there? I think it’s between you and the woman. As long as the woman in question isn’t me or one of my teenage nieces I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/127 "2016-08-23T00:09:45Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You could have written a note and held it against her hand. The touch of just about any inanimate object against the her wrist would have produced the same reaction as your hand, so you could have used that. You could have asked another woman to get her attention. I don’t know enough about either you or the woman to comment on your morals. It’s was benign social encounter, but not everything in life is. How would you have reacted, out of curiosity? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/128 "2016-08-23T00:11:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You could have written a note and held it against her hand. The touch of just about any inanimate object against the her wrist would have produced the same reaction as your hand, so you could have used that. You could have asked another woman to get her attention. He could carry around a trained canary that knows how to flutter in front of a woman’s eyes then fly back to him, for just such occasions– **but why would he**? A vanishingly small number of people of either sex object to this sort of benign social touch, and it’s their job to prevent its occurrence. I’ve got a severe needle phobia. Like bad enough that I feel faint and unpleasant when I see someone else with a hypodermic out, like bad enough that when a diabetic is checking their blood sugar it makes me feel ill. That’s on me. It’s not up to everyone else to change how they handle needles, anymore than it’s up to everyone else to change how they handle benign social touch just because of your dislike of certain types of it. And saying that doesn’t mean that I approve of stabbing strangers with used syringes, any more than saying you need to take care of yourself means I approve of sexual assault. For fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/129 "2016-08-23T00:11:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Decent men don’t rape their wives just like they don’t beat them. Of course, in every culture there will be individuals that violate this norm. If husband and wife can’t stand each other divorce is viable option (what the settlement and terms are depends of numerous factors). My first marriage ended in divorce. Nicely sidestepped; I’ll give you that. And I’ll be certain to leave it on the counter in front of you instead of trying to hand it to you directly. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/130 "2016-08-23T00:12:13Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > How would you have reacted, out of curiosity? Slapped him a few times and beat him with a claw hammer? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/131 "2016-08-23T00:14:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FWIW, the handshake jokes are pretty fucking stupid, and people should knock it off with them. She doesn’t want her hand shook by a dude, that’s her right, don’t flip her shit about that. > > It’s everything else that she deserves a lot of shit for, from slapping a teenager to agreeing that murder is an appropriate response to a man who tries to shake a woman’s hand to calling people who adopt kids monsters to making up bullshit stories about the thousands of people she’s talked to about saying “congratulations” to a bride. > > But her decision not to shake a dude’s hand? Whatever, leave her alone about that one specific thing. Oh for sure, she has every right not to shake a man’s hand if she doesn’t want to, having a ready line such as “I’m sorry I can’t shake hands,” is perfectly reasonable and should be honored. Really, the problem with her view of feminism is that it doesn’t give women any agency. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/132 "2016-08-23T00:15:32Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > How would you have reacted, out of curiosity? As long as he didn’t touch me I would have just said thank you, picked up the fallen items, and continued about my day. If he had touched it would depend on what his intentions appeared to be. Men who are genuinely courteous are almost always quite capable of making it obvious that they have good intentions. With jerks, the jerkdom always seems to poke through their veneer. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/133 "2016-08-23T00:21:42Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > “Every time we allow a child to be adopted, we are saying to that child that his or her heritage is so insignificant that we are happy to wipe it out completely so that it has no legal standing whatsoever” E. Robinson. BY the by, I decided to see if I could source that quote (just in case it turned out to NOT be from Edward G.), and google provided me with but a [single hit.](http://www.originscanada.org/adoption-trauma-2/trauma_to_surrendering_mothers/adoption-and-loss-the-hidden-grief/) I’m not 100% certain that this is where you sourced that quote, but I’m going to call your attention to the following rubric which I found on the page: > [@](#): > > The author gives permission for this document to be reproduced, **providing that it is reproduced in its entirety** , without alteration. Can you figure out what it is that either you, or your immediate source, failed to do? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/134 "2016-08-23T00:22:41Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Oh for sure, she has every right not to shake a man’s hand if she doesn’t want to, having a ready line such as “I’m sorry I can’t shake hands,” is perfectly reasonable and should be honored. > > Really, the problem with her view of feminism is that it doesn’t give women any agency. After we’ve had a few women presidents, when half of the House and Senate are female, and there a female CEO’s running half the Fortune 500, it might be perfectly reasonable to say all a woman needs to have is a ready line such as “I don’t shake hands with unrelated me.” Until that golden day, I don’t think it’s reasonable to require the oppressed person to have to constantly ask, “Don’t harass me.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/135 "2016-08-23T00:22:43Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > As long as he didn’t touch me I would have just said thank you, picked up the fallen items, and continued about my day. If he had touched it would depend on what his intentions appeared to be. Men who are genuinely courteous are almost always quite capable of making it obvious that they have good intentions. With jerks, the jerkdom always seems to poke through their veneer. Wow, that is really nuanced, for you. Well done! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/136 "2016-08-23T00:25:40Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > BY the by, I decided to see if I could source that quote (just in case it turned out to NOT be from Edward G.), and google provided me with but a [single hit.](http://www.originscanada.org/adoption-trauma-2/trauma_to_surrendering_mothers/adoption-and-loss-the-hidden-grief/) I’m not 100% certain that this is where you sourced that quote, but I’m going to call your attention to the following rubric which I found on the page: > > Can you figure out what it is that either you, or your immediate source, failed to do? 😃 Sorry, I got that off a refrigerator magnetic that bore no such restriction. Please remove the line mods. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/137 "2016-08-23T00:25:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FWIW, the handshake jokes are pretty fucking stupid, and people should knock it off with them. She doesn’t want her hand shook by a dude, that’s her right, don’t flip her shit about that. > > It’s everything else that she deserves a lot of shit for, from slapping a teenager to agreeing that murder is an appropriate response to a man who tries to shake a woman’s hand to calling people who adopt kids monsters to making up bullshit stories about the thousands of people she’s talked to about saying “congratulations” to a bride. > > But her decision not to shake a dude’s hand? Whatever, leave her alone about that one specific thing. No, she wants us to live in her world. All men should know they can’t shake hands, just like everyone is supposed to know you never, ever say “congratulations” at a wedding. This is our world, and she wants to impose her values on us. She wants to come into our world and tell men, “don’t shake my hand or it’s rape and women don’t claim rape if it’s not rape, do they?” ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/138 "2016-08-23T00:30:14Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think it’s between you and the woman. As long as the woman in question isn’t me or one of my teenage nieces I don’t care. I… don’t actually have a problem with that. And the “don’t be alone with a woman if you don’t want to be accused to of rape” thing somehow made much more sense the way you explained it now. I guess I’ll take “advocating randomly accusing innocent men of rape” off the list of things you’ve been accused of. For now. Maybe there’s more we can debunk, too. I must say, **ZPG** , you’re not coming across as all that nutty at the moment. Now, why am I finding that weirdly disappointing? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/139 "2016-08-23T00:30:36Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Sorry, I got that off a refrigerator magnetic that bore no such restriction. Of course you did. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/140 "2016-08-23T00:32:44Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > After we’ve had a few women presidents, when half of the House and Senate are female, and there a female CEO’s running half the Fortune 500, it might be perfectly reasonable to say all a woman needs to have is a ready line such as “I don’t shake hands with unrelated me.” Until that golden day, I don’t think it’s reasonable to require the oppressed person to have to constantly ask, “Don’t harass me.” Like I said, no agency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=8)