# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/141 "2016-08-23T00:34:33Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > No, she wants us to live in her world. All men should know they can’t shake hands, just like everyone is supposed to know you never, ever say “congratulations” at a wedding. This is our world, and she wants to impose her values on us. She wants to come into our world and tell men, “don’t shake my hand or it’s rape and women don’t claim rape if it’s not rape, do they?” Such imagination, no wonder the idea of a woman in a burkini terrifies you (I’ll tell you a secret, they are not concealing tentacles or poison spikes under their burkinis). I live in this world and I expect any man I encounter to keep his hands off me unless I give him permission. Anything less and I am going to view it as a threat and treat him according to the degree of threat I perceive. And there is something absolutely as vile as any other type of rape about a man forcing a woman to have public physical contact with him if he knows or even possibly thinks she find the practice immoral. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/142 "2016-08-23T00:36:04Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I… don’t actually have a problem with that. And the “don’t be alone with a woman if you don’t want to be accused to of rape” thing somehow made much more sense the way you explained it now. > > I guess I’ll take “advocating randomly accusing innocent men of rape” off the list of things you’ve been accused of. For now. Maybe there’s more we can debunk, too. > > I must say, **ZPG** , you’re not coming across as all that nutty at the moment. Now, why am I finding that weirdly disappointing? Your subconscious has a thing for crazy chicks. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/143 "2016-08-23T00:41:10Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Your subconscious has a thing for crazy chicks. For the win! Sarafeena is right, though. Part of being a feminist is accepting that women (and men, of course) get to define their own boundaries and decide what is and isn’t appropriate behavior. I defend anybody’s right to not be touched if they don’t want it. But I’ll defend anyone who is cool with hugging just as fervently. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/144 "2016-08-23T00:42:41Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > No, she wants us to live in her world. All men should know they can’t shake hands, just like everyone is supposed to know you never, ever say “congratulations” at a wedding. This is our world, and she wants to impose her values on us. She wants to come into our world and tell men, “don’t shake my hand or it’s rape and women don’t claim rape if it’s not rape, do they?” Hmmm…I don’t actually think she says that handshaking is rape, she says it’s inappropriate and rape-culturey for men to _insist_ on shaking hands with women. Which…if a handshake is politely declined and he insists on grabbing the woman’s hand anyway, I’d say that is inappropriate and rude. I think that for some guys it definitely might show a lack of boundaries that would indicate he might feel free to push more boundaries as well. For other guys it’s likely just boorishness & cluelessness. Taking it to the extreme that the OFFER of the hand by a man to a lady is inappropriate and rape-culturey, that shows her inability to ascribe agency to women. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/145 "2016-08-23T00:45:53Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Your subconscious has a thing for crazy chicks. Oh, boy. Yeah. Actually, if it was only my _sub_conscious… Don’t get me wrong, though, I like you both ways. … Actually, don’t take that the wrong way either. … “MB, your mouth is talking. You might wanna look to that.” Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/146 "2016-08-23T00:49:19Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Oh, boy. Yeah. Actually, if it was only my _sub_conscious… Don’t get me wrong, though, I like you both ways. > > … > > Actually, don’t take that the wrong way either. > > … > > “MB, your mouth is talking. You might wanna look to that.” Gotcha. In cyberspace you seem quite safe. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/147 "2016-08-23T00:51:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Hmmm…I don’t actually think she says that handshaking is rape, she says it’s inappropriate and rape-culturey for men to _insist_ on shaking hands with women. Which…if a handshake is politely declined and he insists on grabbing the woman’s hand anyway, I’d say that is inappropriate and rude. I think that for some guys it definitely might show a lack of boundaries that would indicate he might feel free to push more boundaries as well. For other guys it’s likely just boorishness & cluelessness. Taking it to the extreme that the OFFER of the hand by a man to a lady is inappropriate and rape-culturey, that shows her inability to ascribe agency to women. I don’t think you understand guy etiquette. Men don’t pounce on each other screaming “shake my hand bitch, shake my hand!” What have you been reading? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/148 "2016-08-23T00:54:05Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t think you understand guy etiquette. Men don’t pounce on each other screaming “shake my hand bitch, shake my hand!” > > What have you been reading? Some guys act differently with women. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/149 "2016-08-23T00:58:02Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Some guys act differently with women. Some women think men are filthy and shouldn’t be allowed to view them and wear burkas. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/150 "2016-08-23T01:04:35Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Part of being a feminist is accepting that women (and men, of course) get to define their own boundaries and decide what is and isn’t appropriate behavior. I defend anybody’s right to not be touched if they don’t want it. But I’ll defend anyone who is cool with hugging just as fervently. This is what makes you the best of people. (I came to this thread to snark. I return in shame.) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/151 "2016-08-23T01:05:36Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Some women think men are filthy and shouldn’t be allowed to view them and wear burkas. So what? What I’m saying is that it’s not outside of the realm of possibility that a man might either: 1. grab a woman’s hand without enough warning for her to refuse, 2. grab a woman’s hand after she has refused, or 3. hang onto the handshake longer than a woman might be comfortable with Hate to burst your bubble about guys, but some of them actually are rapey assholes. The difference between me and ZPG is that I don’t think they’re all rapey assholes, and I don’t think that the offer of a handshake is necessarily indicative of being a rapey asshole. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/152 "2016-08-23T01:07:05Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > I was in London Heathrow a few weeks ago. A woman (a complete stranger to me) was sitting across from me in the gate area. She had earbuds in listening to music, with her eyes closed. She was alone, as in no one was traveling with her, as was I. > > While we were sitting there, I noticed that her bookbag had partially toppled over, and her passport and wallet (or whatever is the female word for wallet-y thing) had fallen out. > > My choices were (a) ignore it entirely, (b) try to put the items back in her bag, in which case someone may have thought I was attempting theft, or (c) get her attention. > > I chose (c). > > I tried getting her attention audibly, “Excuse me” or something like that. No dice, earbuds in, and she was jamming. So I :eek: touched her on the arm, right above her wrist. Kind of a light tap. She immediately popped her eyes open, took out the earbuds and I pointed out what I wanted to call to her attention. She was appreciative and friendly, and we chatted for about 10 minutes until we both turned our attention back to something else. For me, that was my Kindle, for her, it was her earbuds. > > So, **ZPG ZEALOT** , you can see this coming, I’m sure. Was I wrong to touch this woman as I did, uninvited? Was she a “whore” for not only not rejecting my touch, and not being offended by it, but also for being willing to engage me in conversation? > > Was I willing to touch this strange woman because,as a man of obviously low morals, I somehow assumed it would be okay? > > In your worldview, what should I have done? > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You could have written a note and held it against her hand. The touch of just about any inanimate object against the her wrist would have produced the same reaction as your hand, so you could have used that. You could have asked another woman to get her attention. I don’t know enough about either you or the woman to comment on your morals. It’s was benign social encounter, but not everything in life is. Okay. So, out of curiosity, I sent a female co-worker of mine the above **exact** verbiage, and asked her what I should have done. I told her the bare minimum about why I was asking, so as not to poison the well. Deborah is a fiercely independent woman who has been involved in women’s rights issues at the state political level. I am good enough friends with her to know that there were some abuse issues in her childhood, which may have led her to be as active for this cause as she is. Her response? > [@](#): > > **My trusted friend Deborah, verbatim** > > Holy shit, (my name), you just touched her wrist, you didn’t feel her up! Is someone seriously saying there is something wrong with what you did? I would never have thought of writing a note to shield her from my actual touch. I just don’t see that it would be needed. I think the great majority of people (male and female) would not see anything wrong with a non threatening touch to get someone’s attention. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/153 "2016-08-23T01:14:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Oh please, I did your goofy little experiment over a workshop luncheon table of women last Friday. Every last one of them (and the entire waitstaff at the freaking restaurant) knew not to say congratulations to a bride. You r problem is you refuse to admit that you didn’t know the proper etiquette (and apparently have no desire to learn which is rather sad). I get it you are ashamed of all the times you came off as rude and lower class. But that doesn’t mean you can’t change in the future. > > Seriously, where do you encounter all these people that don’t know basic etiquette? Housing projects? Homeless shelters? I didn’t know that until today. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/154 "2016-08-23T01:17:29Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > What I’m saying is that it’s not outside of the realm of possibility that a man might either: > > 1. grab a woman’s hand without enough warning for her to refuse, > 2. grab a woman’s hand after she has refused, or > 3. hang onto the handshake longer than a woman might be comfortable with > > Hate to burst your bubble about guys, but some of them actually are rapey assholes. The difference between me and ZPG is that I don’t think they’re all rapey assholes, and I don’t think that the offer of a handshake is necessarily indicative of being a rapey asshole. If we conducted ourselves based on what is not outside the realm of possibility we’d be fucked. Paralysed by fear. Your world, not mine. Zealot has no fear of me ever having anything to do with her. None. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/155 "2016-08-23T01:21:51Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > If we conducted ourselves based on what is not outside the realm of possibility we’d be fucked. Paralysed by fear. > > Your world, not mine. Zealot has no fear of me ever having anything to do with her. None. It’s not outside the realm of possibility that a guy will touch a woman in a way she doesn’t want him to. Happens every day in big and small ways. Don’t think this is a defense of ZPG’s fucked up world view. If that’s what you think then you’re not reading what I’m writing. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/156 "2016-08-23T01:23:08Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK. You are saying that your nephew was under the legal age of consent at the time of the marriage, and, in order for him to marry, his father had to sign legal documents. > > Does the law work like this? Honest question, I am no legal expert. Can you marry (arranged-marry, at that, in this case) your way around the laws regarding the age of consent? I had not heard of this. Pretty sure you can. [https://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-r-0376.htm](https://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-r-0376.htm) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/157 "2016-08-23T01:31:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > “Every time we allow a child to be adopted, we are saying to that child that his or her heritage is so insignificant that we are happy to wipe it out completely so that it has no legal standing whatsoever” E. Robinson. > > Every adoption is also about a society admitting we don’t want to do what is necessary to help poor people care for their children. Adoption isn’t about finding care for children who need it. It’s about finding children for people who want to own them who either can’t produce children or can’t produce more of them. To raise an orphan or a child in similar need is a wonderful altruistic act of good for humanity, but taking that same child and altering their legal birth certificates, denying who their family is (and family is a lot more than a mother and father), and requiring the child to grow up denying everything about themselves calling unrelated people relative crosses the line. It’s like an everyday mind rape. That’s ludicrous. Some parents are so dangerous they should lose their kids and be sterilized. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/158 "2016-08-23T01:47:25Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t think you understand guy etiquette. Men don’t pounce on each other screaming “shake my hand bitch, shake my hand!” > > What have you been reading? O.K. Funny, but . . . There are some men who insist on grabbing your hand and shaking it vigorously as if to say “feel my manly and good-natured handshake! Feel it!” Which is something even I, a bloke with a less-than-ideal respect for personal boundaries, find irksome. The most awkward and unwelcome handshake I have ever received was from an overly enthusiast and, I’m sure, entirely well-meaning woman. Sometimes people do things that make us feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s on them. Sometimes it’s on us. It’d be nice if all people could read the cues that indicate whether someone is open to physical contact and respect those boundaries, but I also think its fair to forgive a little indiscretion (a handshake, a hug, a slap on the shoulder) where there’s no ill intent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/159 "2016-08-23T02:24:32Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > O.K. Funny, but . . . > There are some men who insist on grabbing your hand and shaking it vigorously as if to say “feel my manly and good-natured handshake! Feel it!” Which is something even I, a bloke with a less-than-ideal respect for personal boundaries, find irksome. > > The most awkward and unwelcome handshake I have ever received was from an overly enthusiast and, I’m sure, entirely well-meaning woman. > > Sometimes people do things that make us feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s on them. Sometimes it’s on us. It’d be nice if all people could read the cues that indicate whether someone is open to physical contact and respect those boundaries, but I also think its fair to forgive a little indiscretion (a handshake, a hug, a slap on the shoulder) where there’s no ill intent. Yup. I’ve had dudes give me bad handshakes. I even had a dude give me a handshake that made me want to have him arrested (like seriously, I was 18, he used his middle finger to caress my palm, I was at work and couldn’t tell him to fuck off, he showed me a picture of his Little Brother in the BB/BS program–a quarter century later I still wonder if there’s any way I could’ve called the cops on him). And I’m a dude. I’m absolutely sure 100% sure it happens more to women. But that doesn’t lead to ZPG’s conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/160 "2016-08-23T02:48:26Z")
I must say now I know all those men who have shaken my hand all these years were assaulting me I feel like I can totally empathize with abuse victims. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=9)