# OK, ZPG: Let's get a room. I'm paying. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557 "2016-08-21T20:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/161 "2016-08-23T03:17:30Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/162 "2016-08-23T03:26:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yup. > > I’ve had dudes give me bad handshakes. I even had a dude give me a handshake that made me want to have him arrested (like seriously, I was 18, he used his middle finger to caress my palm, I was at work and couldn’t tell him to fuck off, he showed me a picture of his Little Brother in the BB/BS program–a quarter century later I still wonder if there’s any way I could’ve called the cops on him). > > And I’m a dude. I’m absolutely sure 100% sure it happens more to women. > > But that doesn’t lead to ZPG’s conclusions. I’ve had and given those kind of handshakes in a jokey-jerky context, but I can see how that would be very creepy if the vibe was wrong, and I’d never dream of giving that kind of joking handshake to a lady friend. I personally think ZPG’s world view is sadly twisted, but I also believe that sometimes even a handshake can be used, intentionally or inadvertently, as a violation of personal boundaries, rather than the sign of trust and acceptance it’s supposed to be. (PS: Always thought you wuz a lady. Don’t know why.) > [@levdrakon](#): > > I must say now I know all those men who have shaken my hand all these years were assaulting me I feel like I can totally empathize with abuse victims. Most un-funny. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/163 "2016-08-23T04:53:15Z")
About my asking **jsgoddess** for cites in post [78](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19574060&postcount=78): Never mind, **jsgoddess** , I [found](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19445005&postcount=146) [enough](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11957536&postcount=26) [cites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11957524&postcount=25) on my own to believe that you weren’t kidding about any of that. Sorry for doubting you. Also, if you’re a bit pissed at me right now for even asking, that’s fine. So, yeah. How about that **ZPG** , eh? She can sure comes across as a tad… confrontational at times. Yeah, murder and infanticide. That’s… well, you don’t see that every day. Still, in the interest of debunking, since it worked out the first time: **ZPG** , another scenario. Let’s say that a woman is pregnant with a child that she had not planned and does not want. (For the sake of discussion, let’s leave out keeping the child and raising it.) What should be her course of action? 1. Abort the pregnancy. 2. Put the child up for adoption. 3. Have the child, then murder the child. As a variation, let’s also consider a scenario where, for whatever reason, abortion was not an option. This leaves options 2 and 3: 1. Put the child up for adoption. 2. Have the child, then murder the child. One more scenario: Let’s say that I have made a woman pregnant by way of a night of passion, and she keeps the child. I am now being asked to pay child support. Which of the following options do you think I should choose? 1. Pay the child support. 2. Murder the woman. 3. Murder the child. 4. Murder the woman and the child. And, yeah, I felt a bit weird writing all that. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/164 "2016-08-23T07:38:12Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Every adoption is also about a society admitting we don’t want to do what is necessary to help poor people care for their children. Some I’ll concede, not all. Some families just don’t have the emotional resources to care for their kids…and the kids deserve to live in a family. > [@](#): > > Adoption isn’t about finding care for children who need it. It’s about finding children for people who want to own them who either can’t produce children or can’t produce more of them. That might have been true up until the late 1970’s when single women were encouraged to relinquish their babies to be raised by more ‘proper’ mothers, but is not the case nowadays. > [@](#): > > To raise an orphan or a child in similar need is a wonderful altruistic act of good for humanity, but taking that same child and altering their legal birth certificates, denying who their family is (and family is a lot more than a mother and father), and requiring the child to grow up denying everything about themselves calling unrelated people relative crosses the line. And here is where we start to descend into the abyss of ZPG’s neuroses… > [@](#): > > It’s like an everyday mind rape. See? Adoption = rape now!! Not just handshakes… Fnark ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/165 "2016-08-23T14:07:15Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > About my asking **jsgoddess** for cites in post [78](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19574060&postcount=78): > > Never mind, **jsgoddess** , I [found](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19445005&postcount=146) [enough](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11957536&postcount=26) [cites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11957524&postcount=25) on my own to believe that you weren’t kidding about any of that. Sorry for doubting you. Also, if you’re a bit pissed at me right now for even asking, that’s fine. Not at all. I didn’t see it at first, and then I was just extraordinarily lazy. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/166 "2016-08-23T14:46:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > “Every time we allow a child to be adopted, we are saying to that child that his or her heritage is so insignificant that we are happy to wipe it out completely so that it has no legal standing whatsoever” E. Robinson. > > Every adoption is also about a society admitting we don’t want to do what is necessary to help poor people care for their children. Adoption isn’t about finding care for children who need it. It’s about finding children for people who want to own them who either can’t produce children or can’t produce more of them. To raise an orphan or a child in similar need is a wonderful altruistic act of good for humanity, but taking that same child and altering their legal birth certificates, denying who their family is (and family is a lot more than a mother and father), and requiring the child to grow up denying everything about themselves calling unrelated people relative crosses the line. It’s like an everyday mind rape. How about when a child is left at a safe haven dropoff instead of in a Dumpster? How about orphans in countries where there is no history of where the child came from? Is it more moral to leave them isolated than to give them a happy home with loving parents? What about open adoptions where the child knows its birth family and is raised with its heritage? As far as a newborn “denying everything about [itself]”, I guess it depends how much you think is inborn vs. culturally imposed. Do people who have biological children do it because they want to “own” them? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/167 "2016-08-23T14:49:38Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > About my asking **jsgoddess** for cites in post [78](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19574060&postcount=78): > > Never mind, **jsgoddess** , I [found](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19445005&postcount=146) [enough](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11957536&postcount=26) [cites](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11957524&postcount=25) on my own to believe that you weren’t kidding about any of that. Sorry for doubting you. Also, if you’re a bit pissed at me right now for even asking, that’s fine. > > So, yeah. How about that **ZPG** , eh? She can sure comes across as a tad… confrontational at times. Yeah, murder and infanticide. That’s… well, you don’t see that every day. Still, in the interest of debunking, since it worked out the first time: > > **ZPG** , another scenario. Let’s say that a woman is pregnant with a child that she had not planned and does not want. (For the sake of discussion, let’s leave out keeping the child and raising it.) What should be her course of action? > > 1. Abort the pregnancy. > 2. Put the child up for adoption. > 3. Have the child, then murder the child. > > As a variation, let’s also consider a scenario where, for whatever reason, abortion was not an option. This leaves options 2 and 3: > > 1. Put the child up for adoption. > 2. Have the child, then murder the child. > > One more scenario: Let’s say that I have made a woman pregnant by way of a night of passion, and she keeps the child. I am now being asked to pay child support. Which of the following options do you think I should choose? > > 1. Pay the child support. > 2. Murder the woman. > 3. Murder the child. > 4. Murder the woman and the child. > > And, yeah, I felt a bit weird writing all that. Scenario 1: Have an abortion. It’s the responsible choice. Scenario 2: The circumstances of being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term are horrific enough to be sufficient grounds for a not guilty by reason of diminished capacity verdict should the unfortunate woman be brought to trail for neonaticide of the newborn. Scenario 3: Ideally our society should provide a way for either parent in a pregnancy to renounce their parental rights and responsibilities within a limited window of time (whatever we decide after some consideration is acceptable for an adult to make a life-changing decision). For women freedom to chose abortion allows for this. Ideally I think men should have a similar window within roughly the same amount of time to decide to accept or decline parental rights (and the subsequent financial obligations that go with those rights) and once done it should be irrevocable. Unfortunately, we do not have such a legal situation now. Because of that I would default to Scenario 2’s option. The circumstances of being forced carry the financial burden for 18 (possibly 21) years for an unwanted child are horrific enough to be sufficient grounds for a not guilty by reason of diminished capacity verdict should the unfortunate man be brought to trail for causing said child’s death… ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/168 "2016-08-23T14:52:15Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > How about when a child is left at a safe haven dropoff instead of in a Dumpster? How about orphans in countries where there is no history of where the child came from? Is it more moral to leave them isolated than to give them a happy home with loving parents? What about open adoptions where the child knows its birth family and is raised with its heritage? > > As far as a newborn “denying everything about [itself]”, I guess it depends how much you think is inborn vs. culturally imposed. > > Do people who have biological children do it because they want to “own” them? There is nothing wrong with being a orphan raised by loving guardians or by other relatives. You do not have to claim parentage to love a child or provide a proper home. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/169 "2016-08-23T14:56:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Scenario 1: Have an abortion. It’s the responsible choice. > Scenario 2: The circumstances of being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term are horrific enough to be sufficient grounds for a not guilty by reason of diminished capacity verdict should the unfortunate woman be brought to trail for neonaticide of the newborn. > Scenario 3: Ideally our society should provide a way for either parent in a pregnancy to renounce their parental rights and responsibilities within a limited window of time (whatever we decide after some consideration is acceptable for an adult to make a life-changing decision). For women freedom to chose abortion allows for this. Ideally I think men should have a similar window within roughly the same amount of time to decide to accept or decline parental rights (and the subsequent financial obligations that go with those rights) and once done it should be irrevocable. Unfortunately, we do not have such a legal situation now. Because of that I would default to Scenario 2’s option. The circumstances of being forced carry the financial burden for 18 (possibly 21) years for an unwanted child are horrific enough to be sufficient grounds for a not guilty by reason of diminished capacity verdict should the unfortunate man be brought to trail for causing said child’s death… The world isn’t so black and white. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/170 "2016-08-23T15:18:55Z")
It’s bewildering to try to make sense of the mental gymnastics that ZPGZ performs in order to make her way through this world. Her reality is only incidentally related to the world in which she lives and tries to function. It’s hard for her to make sense of things when she’s a perpetual victim of life. She needs her own set of rules in order to justify the constant state of fear raging in her brain. Virtually every one and every thing is a threat to her very identity. It must be hell getting through the day to day when you’re so desperately unhinged. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/171 "2016-08-23T15:27:30Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The world isn’t so black and white. For some things it is. Nobody, male or female, should be forced to be a parent. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/172 "2016-08-23T15:29:56Z")
I’m just sorta glad we now have the congratulations thing to work with. The old handshake rape thing was getting a bit long in the tooth to be honest. Do we know where she stands on buckeyes? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/173 "2016-08-23T15:30:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s bewildering to try to make sense of the mental gymnastics that ZPGZ performs in order to make her way through this world. Her reality is only incidentally related to the world in which she lives and tries to function. It’s hard for her to make sense of things when she’s a perpetual victim of life. She needs her own set of rules in order to justify the constant state of fear raging in her brain. Virtually every one and every thing is a threat to her very identity. It must be hell getting through the day to day when you’re so desperately unhinged. Strange, most people describe as one of the most positive, upbeat people they know. I have had problems in my life, but I’ve always bounced back from them unlike many people. I have wonderful family, great marriage, jobs I love, and generally enjoy life. If that’s unhinged, well, unhinged is good. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/174 "2016-08-23T15:43:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Scenario 1: Have an abortion. It’s the responsible choice. OK. Cool. > [@](#): > > Scenario 2: The circumstances of being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term are horrific enough to be sufficient grounds for a not guilty by reason of diminished capacity verdict should the unfortunate woman be brought to trail for neonaticide of the newborn. OK. This seems to be an answer that assumes that an option has already been chosen, though. I guess I was thinking more like this: So, there’s this woman right here. She has just had a child, which she had not planned and doesn’t particularly want. She goes to see you, knowing that you’re a respected advisor (non-academic). She says: “ **ZPG** , I know this kind of thing isn’t really part of your job description, so you don’t have to give me an answer here. However, if you give me your opinion, there’s a ginormous tip in it for you. I have this kid here, that I do not want. I’m too traumatized to think straight. I could either kill the baby, or put it up for adoption. What do you think I should do? Again, if you don’t want to say, I’ll make my own mind up.” > [@](#): > > Because of that I would default to Scenario 2’s option. Which option was that? Just for clarification. There seems to be an option number missing here. A typo, I assume. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/175 "2016-08-23T15:44:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For some things it is. Nobody, male or female, should be forced to be a parent. Being careful during sex solves a lot of those issues. But why shouldn’t someone be forced to be a parent? Do people have unlimited sovereignty over self? Should a man be able to force a woman to have an abortion so he’s not forced to be a parent? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/176 "2016-08-23T15:46:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Strange, most people describe as one of the most positive, upbeat people they know. I have had problems in my life, but I’ve always bounced back from them unlike many people. I have wonderful family, great marriage, jobs I love, and generally enjoy life. If that’s unhinged, well, unhinged is good. I don’t know you. I can only draw conclusions based on the things you’ve said here. My conclusion is that you’re delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/177 "2016-08-23T16:09:30Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For some things it is. Nobody, male or female, should be forced to be a parent. How do you reconcile the idea that adult people have more of a right to have sex than a post-birth (not talking about abortions here) baby has a right to live? ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/178 "2016-08-23T16:13:53Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > What do you think I should do? Again, if you don’t want to say, I’ll make my own mind up." > Which option was that? Just for clarification. There seems to be an option number missing here. A typo, I assume. In both of these cases in the current societal setup, she is calling for the death of the baby. That’s what she means by “the murderer should get off due to the trauma of being faced with being a parent.” Adoption is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/179 "2016-08-23T16:22:40Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > How do you reconcile the idea that adult people have more of a right to have sex than a post-birth (not talking about abortions here) baby has a right to live? They are adults. They think and communicate as human beings. Post-birth babies don’t have that level of consciousness or at least the ability for it to be observed and measured. They are organic bundles that have the potential to be human beings, but only with time and training will a human mind develop from them. Ideally, neonaticide shouldn’t be necessary. We should have better forms of birth control which everyone on the planet embraces and uses 100% of the time. And everyone 100% of time only conceives a child at an opportune time to parent. But that better world is a long way off. Until then some pragmatism is required. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557/180 "2016-08-23T16:24:03Z")
> [@bobkitty](#): > > In both of these cases in the current societal setup, she is calling for the death of the baby. That’s what she means by “the murderer should get off due to the trauma of being faced with being a parent.” Adoption is not an option. Well, that’s one reading of it. Can’t think of another one, to be honest, but that could have to do with my lack of imagination, not **ZPG** ’s opinions. As I said, we are making a lot of assumptions. Earlier on, I took one of her posts to mean that women should randomly accuse innocent men of rape. That was the only reading I thought possible of the post in question. But then \*\*ZPG \*\*explained, and that wasn’t what she meant. Turns out, there was a more benign possibility that I had missed. That’s why I’m asking for clarifications before jumping any guns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-zpg-lets-get-a-room-im-paying/763557.md?page=10)