# Okay Bricker, You've Made Up My Mind... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150 "2008-09-05T08:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/61 "2008-09-06T23:04:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I have a question (well, two, actually). First, IS there a sect of Christianity, that IS called “Christians”, who include traditional Jewish law? (Say, “Kosher Christians”, or whatever). And is the word “Gentile” meant to be derogatory? > > Thanks. I believe 7th Day Adventists keep kosher (as well as worship on Saturday instead of Sunday), but I’ve never heard that they adhere to any other area of Jewish law. They might, but I don’t know. Don’t know of any others. (I’ll let the Jewish folks answer that second question, but my experience with Jewish folks is that it’s just a normal term for a non-Jew. I’ve had Jews use the term in conversation many times where it was clearly just meant to be descriptive.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/62 "2008-09-06T23:36:27Z")
Doesn’t Rastafaria have a claim to be a branch of Judaism? Its followers claim to be one of the lost tribes of Israel, and honor the Old Testament but not the New. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/63 "2008-09-06T23:46:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And is the word “Gentile” meant to be derogatory? Nope, not at all, it just means that someone isn’t Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/64 "2008-09-06T23:53:24Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > and possibly fudge the truth a bit Comes the dawn. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/65 "2008-09-06T23:56:39Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Nope, not at all, it just means that someone isn’t Jewish. Thanks. I didn’t think it was, but I just thought I’d ask. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/66 "2008-09-07T01:12:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Thanks. I didn’t think it was, but I just thought I’d ask. Yeah, that’s the difference between “Gentile” and “Goy”. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/67 "2008-09-07T03:24:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Despite your absurd evasions, JfJ does not use the term in its cultural or ethnic sense, but in its religious sense. And not, as you so dishonestly claim, in a ‘biblical’ sense either. They’ve even sought to incorporate the Bat Mitzvah into their charade. Please explain where that is in the Bible, or genetics, or a Jew’s ‘ethnic heritage’. If you’re not simply a lying apologist, please do explain how co-opting an event which first occurred in America on March 18, 1922, has to do with anything other than subverting the modern Jewish religion. > But we both know you can’t do that, and you’re merely using the fallacy of equivocation to shill for these revolting sons of whores, eh? > > These scumfucks aim at deceiving Jews into believing that the modern Jewish religion is compatible with Christianity. You aim at helping them lie. > The fact that you’re reduced to talking about ‘Jewish Baptist Ministers’ should be a big ol’ clue. Especially since your definition of “Jew” would include virtually the entire Arab world. Or anybody with any “Jewish DNA”, whatever the fuck you think that is. > > And by the way, by definition a Christian is a [gentile](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gentile) and not a Jew. Your absurd obfuscation of claiming that a Jew who converts to Christianity is not a Gentile unless I can prove that his family wasn’t ethnically Jewish, is shameful. > Take your Jew-poaching cult of liars and your apologia, and shove 'em up your ass sideways. Thank you for your well-reasoned and masterful defense of your faith and the integrity of your people. Hope you have a good week. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/68 "2008-09-07T03:59:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I have a question (well, two, actually). First, IS there a sect of Christianity, that IS called “Christians”, who include traditional Jewish law? (Say, “Kosher Christians”, or whatever). And is the word “Gentile” meant to be derogatory? > > Thanks. The SDA keep the Sabbath, usually avoid meat, but especially from unclean animals, but don’t keep the Festivals. The various Armstrong-based “Churches of God” (there are plenty of CoG’s which have nothing to do with Armstrong or Jewish tradition & law) keep Sabbath, Festivals & a kosher diet. The Assemblies of Yahweh also do- and also go another length avoiding “pagan” words like God, Lord, Jesus Christ, and church in favor of El/Elohim, Adonai, Yahweh, Yahshua the Messiah, and assembly/congregation. Now, these churches are pro-Israel & philo-Semitic. However, some branches of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity movement keep Sabbath, the Festivals, kosher diet, and the Sacred Names. They regard themselves as the true Israel and Jews as Kenite-Canaanite-Edomite-Khazar wannabes, and even literal “Serpent Seed” (descendants of Cain, son of Eve & the Serpent. There are some branches of MJs btw that emphasize Jewish Law & tradition more than others, even for Gentile converts. Some even go so far as to recommend the present validity of animal sacrifices. Those are VERY few and far between. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/69 "2008-09-07T04:24:32Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Comes the dawn. Good to know that you have never fudged the truth and never admitted it. Heck, with a record like that you could be your own messiah. You’re only fooling yourself, no-one else buys it. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/70 "2008-09-07T04:38:04Z")
Maybe, but unlike you, I don’t pretend to honor Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/71 "2008-09-07T04:45:09Z")
JFJ and Messianic Judaism are Christian movenents which try to convert ethnic Jews to Christianity. Because the word “Judaism” applies to both an ethnicity and a religion, it leads to all kinds of misunderstandings and even (as in the case of JFJ) intentional deception. It is possible to be one kind of “Jew” without being the other kind. Adherents of JFJ and other self-identified “Messianic Jewish” groups are religious Christians who may or may not be ethnic Jews. Theologically, they are not Jewish and are not recognized as Jewish by the State if Israel. Two significant theological distinctions which should be pointed out are that 1.) The Jewish Messiah is not God, or the offspring of God, but a human king and 2.) that Jesus did not fulfill the _Jewish_ expectations of the Messiah, and _nobody_ is the Messiah until the expected prophecies are fulfilled. In Judaism, the Messiah is not _born_ the Messiah. He _becomes_ the Messiah by fulfilling expectations. It is theologically impossible to either worship Jesus as God or recognize him as the Messiah and still be religiously Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/72 "2008-09-07T04:49:02Z")
By the way, **Finn** is exactly right that JFJ deliberately seeks to deceive ethnic Jews who are not educated about religious Judaism into believing that their group is _both_ theologically and ethnically Christian. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/73 "2008-09-07T05:15:41Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Thank you for your well-reasoned and masterful defense of your faith and the integrity of your people. Pointing out that you’re a dishonest asshole is an attempt to “defend” my faith and the “integrity of my people”? And yet, if my direct response to your claims equates to that, that means: you were attacking Judaism and the integrity of Jews as a people. Well, at least you admit it. Sideways and snakelike, but an admission none the less. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, **Finn** is exactly right that JFJ deliberately seeks to deceive ethnic Jews who are not educated about religious Judaism into believing that their group is _both_ theologically and ethnically Christian. Heh, we’ve have our differences in the past, but I’ll take the time to specifically thank you for that (assuming you meant “both theologically and ethnically Jewish”, of course 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/74 "2008-09-07T05:25:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Pointing out that you’re a dishonest asshole is an attempt to “defend” my faith and the “integrity of my people”? > And yet, if my direct response to your claims equates to that, that means: you were attacking Judaism and the integrity of Jews as a people. > > Well, at least you admit it. Sideways and snakelike, but an admission none the less. > > Heh, we’ve have our differences in the past, but I’ll take the time to specifically thank you for that (assuming you meant “both theologically and ethnically Jewish”, of course 😉 ) Yep. ::smack: I didn’t realize I’d done that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/75 "2008-09-07T06:28:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Jews who convert to Christianity - and that includes Jews for Jesus and their ilk - are Christians with Jewish ancestry. Nothing more. Has the whole 'child of a Jewish mother" thing gone out the window? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/76 "2008-09-07T06:35:54Z")
Another common misunderstanding. Jewish mothers are no more likely to fling their children out a window than any other demographic sub-group. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/77 "2008-09-07T07:09:51Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Has the whole 'child of a Jewish mother" thing gone out the window? Confused as to who you should confine your genocidal fantasies to, freakboy? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/78 "2008-09-07T07:21:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I like to compare it to quantum physics: it makes no logical sense, it isn’t magic, but it exists. Quantum physics makes perfect logical sense. It merely doesn’t conform to human ‘common sense’, which (as per Einstein, IIRC) is merely the set of biases acquired before age 18. Now stop trying to legitimize your religion by tying it to science: it degrades both epistemologies. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/79 "2008-09-07T08:49:18Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Are you also as bothered when atheists of Jewish ancestry call themselves “Jews”? A Jew that doesn’t doubt the existence of God at least once a day needs to study more. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/80 "2008-09-07T10:20:35Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Are you also as bothered when atheists of Jewish ancestry call themselves “Jews”? If I were, I wouldn’t be married to one. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Jews are Jews are Jews. They may be religious (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform), they may be secular, they may be Christian- but all they remain Jews. Their DNA does not change if they depart from traditional Judaism. No, they may \*not \*be Christian (or any other religion). Just as someone converting to Judaism becomes a full Jew, even if his DNA does not change, a Jew converting to something else ceases being a Jew, no matter what his ancestry is. Look - we’re a tribal religion. That’s a completely different beast than your “philosophical” religions like Christianity or Islam. The way Jews see things, each tribe has its own customs, history and religion religion. Abandoning your tribal religion doesn’t mean you left the tribe, it just means your choosing to act differently than your fellow tribesmen. A tribe member can go for a walk outside the ancestral lands for as long as he wants, and he’ll always be accepted back home. Actually joining another religion, though, is different. Because each tribe has its own religion, converting means you’ve chosen to join another tribe. Since a person can’t be part of two tribes at the same time, joining another religion is, in effect, declaring a new allegiance. Now, I know Christianity doesn’t see religion that way. But that doesn’t matter, because we’re talking about the Jewish point of view . Someone who joins another religion stops being a Jew. Period. And someone who actively acts to convert Jews to another religion is a quisling, a traitor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150.md?page=5)