# Okay Bricker, You've Made Up My Mind... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150 "2008-09-05T08:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/81 "2008-09-07T13:37:32Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > eleanorrigby- First, it’s “the Book of Revelation”, not “Revelations”. And no, the idea of a Jewish turn to Christ before He returns doesn’t come from there. In the NT, it is implied by Christ (“You will not see me again until you are ready to say ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’”) but most fully developed by Paul in Romans 9-11. Well, I gotta correct this. (No, scholars didn’t just discover ancient texts which actually do call it “Revelations”… yet.) However, Rev 7 which discusses the sealing of the 144,000 Israelites/Jews, their appearance with Christ in Rev 14, and the Panorama of the SunClad Woman (possibly Israel) beseiged by Satan in Rev 12 have been regarded as references to a future Jewish revival of Christian faith. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/82 "2008-09-07T18:44:47Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Quantum physics makes perfect logical sense. It merely doesn’t conform to human ‘common sense’, which (as per Einstein, IIRC) is merely the set of biases acquired before age 18. > > Now stop trying to legitimize your religion by tying it to science: it degrades both epistemologies. Yes ma’am, I’ll stop. I was a very bad boy. Will you have to spank me now? Incidentally, Einstein famously stated that “God does not play dice with the universe” to criticize the random nature of sub-atomic decay. Since we are here to supposedly stamp out ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/83 "2008-09-07T19:00:44Z")
Well, if this decay is truly random, doesn’t that mean it happens without any particular cause? It “just happens”? Kind of buggers the “cause and effect” structure, no? No? Maybe? Nurse? Nurse? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/84 "2008-09-07T19:11:47Z")
Technically, it is not “The Book of Revelation,” either. The name used in Nestle-Aland is [symbol]Apokulujis Iwannou[/symbol] (_Apokalypsis Iôannou_, “Revelation of John.” 😛 ETA: That is how it is (sort of) mentioned in the Muratorian Canon, as well.) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/85 "2008-09-08T09:20:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > … > No, they may \*not \*be Christian (or any other religion). Just as someone converting to Judaism becomes a full Jew, even if his DNA does not change, a Jew converting to something else ceases being a Jew, no matter what his ancestry is. … Cite please. I ask because I don’t believe the claim to be true as I know several who claim to be both Christian and Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/86 "2008-09-08T09:22:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Another common misunderstanding. Jewish mothers are no more likely to fling their children out a window than any other demographic sub-group. SDMB: Ever the repository of esoteric and crucial data. A thousand thanks. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/87 "2008-09-08T09:34:29Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > I ask because I don’t believe the claim to be true as I know several who claim to be both Christian and Jewish. Ah yes, some of your best friends are Jewish. I’m sure, of course, that the only Jews who you don’t want to exterminate are the Christian ones. Go back to fwapping to Nazi literature, you goose stepping motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/88 "2008-09-08T11:18:15Z")
Fwapping is hitting someone with a newspaper or something. You mean fapping. This pointless nitpick brought to you by RevenantCorp. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/89 "2008-09-08T11:39:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah yes, some of your best friends are Jewish. > I’m sure, of course, that the only Jews who you don’t want to exterminate are the Christian ones. > Go back to fwapping to Nazi literature, you goose stepping motherfucker. And Godwin kicks your ass, Holocaust-trivializer. Btw, Hitler would have sent Messianic Jews to the camps also, so I guess you now have one good thing to say about him. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/90 "2008-09-08T11:50:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah yes, some of your best friends are Jewish. > I’m sure, of course, that the only Jews who you don’t want to exterminate are the Christian ones. > Go back to fwapping to Nazi literature, you goose stepping motherfucker. Btw, John Cleese would like a word with you. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HLNhPMQnWu4/hqdefault.jpg "John Cleese vs Extremism") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/91 "2008-09-08T12:07:47Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > And Godwin kicks your ass, Holocaust-trivializer. No, you stupid son of a whore, the piece of shit you’re defending has indeed claiming that it would be perfectly natural and normal to support the destruction of Judaism, down to the last Torah, by fire. And, you stupid piece of shit, considering that I actually had my entire extended family on my Mother’s side of the family butchered by the Nazis, and you’re a dumbfuck liar supporting evangelical Christians trying to deceive Jews into becoming Christians, why don’t you keep your ignorant little yap shut about the Holocaust, eh? You’re busy defending a veritable neo-Nazi who posts about his support for exterminating the little surviving family I do have, so go eat broken glass, you piece of shit. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Btw, Hitler would have sent Messianic Jews to the camps also, so I guess you now have one good thing to say about him. Revolting, even for a dishonest asshole like you. Speaking of how you’re a liar, you figured out yet how Bat Mitzvahs are part of “Jewish DNA” or non-modern Judaism? Eh? No? You don’t care a jot for the truth before you start lying in support of the JfJ cult and their agenda? Never would’ve thunk it. Nopers. Go peddle your deceptions somewhere where people are too ignorant to spot 'em. Now you’re not only supporting scum like Jews for Jesus, you’re defending scum like Sevastopol and his masturbatory fantasies of a second holocaust. You’re worthless. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/92 "2008-09-08T12:24:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, you stupid son of a whore, the piece of shit you’re defending has indeed claiming that it would be perfectly natural and normal to support the destruction of Judaism, down to the last Torah, by fire. > > And, you stupid piece of shit, considering that I actually had my entire extended family on my Mother’s side of the family butchered by the Nazis, and you’re a dumbfuck liar supporting evangelical Christians trying to deceive Jews into becoming Christians, why don’t you keep your ignorant little yap shut about the Holocaust, eh? You’re busy defending a veritable neo-Nazi who posts about his support for exterminating the little surviving family I do have, so go eat broken glass, you piece of shit. > > Revolting, even for a dishonest asshole like you. > > Speaking of how you’re a liar, you figured out yet how Bat Mitzvahs are part of “Jewish DNA” or non-modern Judaism? Eh? > No? > You don’t care a jot for the truth before you start lying in support of the JfJ cult and their agenda? > Never would’ve thunk it. Nopers. > > Go peddle your deceptions somewhere where people are too ignorant to spot 'em. Now you’re not only supporting scum like Jews for Jesus, you’re defending scum like Sevastopol and his masturbatory fantasies of a second holocaust. > You’re worthless. Cite for your claim about Sevastapol and my apologies on that if it’s true. As to the rest of your rant, John Cleese REALLY wants a word with you. Btw, in the interests of full disclosure, I have donated to JfJ & also to other Jewish evangelistic efforts in my own denomination- the Assemblies of God and will probably continue to do so. If you see that as comparable to Naziism, then your family tragedy has driven you totally bonkers and for that I am sorry. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/93 "2008-09-08T12:34:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Bullshit. > You are either ignorant or lying. > > It was founded, and is run and informed by the ideals of evangelical Christians. It seems rather simple to figure out that evangelical Christians are _not_ Jews. > The scumfuck group’s founder, “Moishe Rosen”, is actually named Martin Meyer Rosen. Wonder why he changed his name, eh? He also went to Northeastern Bible College and became a _Christian missionary_. He was ordained as a _Baptist Minister_. He earned a \* Doctor of Divinity Degree from Western Conservative Baptist Seminary\*. Their membership is, likewise, largely made up of _evangelical Christians_, as their group is dedicated to spreading the _gospel_ of _Jesus Christ_. > > Judaism is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity, as we do not believe in a dualistic, multiplicative or triune God. “Hear oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” Not “…the Lord is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” > > You either need to do your research before you make such absurd claims as calling evangelical Christians, or former Jews who converted to Christianity “Jews”. > Or you need to not bullshit when people can catch you. Being neither Christian or a Jew I hope I am not being offensive when I say" What I have read and understand Jesus was a Jew, his followers were of the Jewish faith". It meant the Christian belief was that Jesus was God in the sense that the word God is a noun,(Person, Place and Thing) a composition of all three. I of couse admit I am not necassaily right but that is my understanding. The Jews who broke away from the traditional beliefs became known as Christians, like the Protestants who broke away from the Catholic church in Luther’s time were not called Catholics. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/94 "2008-09-08T12:49:54Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Cite for your claim about Sevastapol and my apologies on that if it’s true. > > As to the rest of your rant, John Cleese REALLY wants a word with you. > > Btw, in the interests of full disclosure, I have donated to JfJ & also to other Jewish evangelistic efforts in my own denomination- the Assemblies of God and will probably continue to do so. If you see that as comparable to Naziism, then your family tragedy has driven you totally bonkers and for that I am sorry. Well, I found this thread… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=462344&highlight=Jerusalem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=462344&highlight=Jerusalem) Oh shit. OK, my only view of Sevastapol was based on his comments in this thread. I did not realize he was one of our anti-Zionists. And I think a search would reveal that I am a pretty dedicated Christian Zionist (tho not of the Apocalyptic type). So my apologies to FinnAgain for my support of Sevatapol & accusing you of Holocaust-trivializing in your attack on him. I honestly was not aware of his hostility to Israel. But man, if you seriously think Christian seeking to persuade Jews to faith in Jesus is the moral equivalent of Inquisitions, progroms and Shoahs, you really need to get some perspective. And I did all that without casting aspersions on your parenthood or your integrity as a human being. See how easy that was. John Cleese is still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/95 "2008-09-08T12:55:02Z")
It is sad when people put other religions down. Religion is a belief system, any religion that helps one become a better person,doesn’t need to convert others to it, if their God is strong enough than leave it to Him. The Psalmist says" I have said:You are gods and all of you sons of the most high." If every one treated each other as good as they wanted to be treated and just trusted that the God they have said to believe in they would let their God handle things, He sure shouldn’t need help from humans. I wonder if their belief is real or if they are afraid they may be wrong if everyone doesn’t believe the same thing. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/96 "2008-09-08T13:01:10Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is sad when people put other religions down. Religion is a belief system, any religion that helps one become a better person,doesn’t need to convert others to it, if their God is strong enough than leave it to Him. The Psalmist says" I have said:You are gods and all of you sons of the most high." If every one treated each other as good as they wanted to be treated and just trusted that the God they have said to believe in they would let their God handle things, He sure shouldn’t need help from humans. > > I wonder if their belief is real or if they are afraid they may be wrong if everyone doesn’t believe the same thing. > > Monavis We evangelizing/prosletyzing/whatever Christians try to persuade others about Jesus for one reason- He is reported in the Gospels as having told us to. We believe everyone needs JC as Lord & Savior. Even those of us who believe & hope for the Universal Salvation of everyone also believe that they would be better off in this life with Jesus & that it would be wrong for us to withold the Gospel of Jesus from them. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/97 "2008-09-08T13:07:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If I were, I wouldn’t be married to one. > > No, they may \*not \*be Christian (or any other religion). Just as someone converting to Judaism becomes a full Jew, even if his DNA does not change, a Jew converting to something else ceases being a Jew, no matter what his ancestry is. > > Look - we’re a tribal religion. That’s a completely different beast than your “philosophical” religions like Christianity or Islam. The way Jews see things, each tribe has its own customs, history and religion religion. Abandoning your tribal religion doesn’t mean you left the tribe, it just means your choosing to act differently than your fellow tribesmen. A tribe member can go for a walk outside the ancestral lands for as long as he wants, and he’ll always be accepted back home. > > Actually joining another religion, though, is different. Because each tribe has its own religion, converting means you’ve chosen to join another tribe. Since a person can’t be part of two tribes at the same time, joining another religion is, in effect, declaring a new allegiance. > > Now, I know Christianity doesn’t see religion that way. But that doesn’t matter, because we’re talking about the Jewish point of view . Someone who joins another religion stops being a Jew. Period. And someone who actively acts to convert Jews to another religion is a quisling, a traitor. I think your point is that we do not say a Protestant Catholic. So Jews would not be Jews for Jesus. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/98 "2008-09-08T13:12:46Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Being neither Christian or a Jew I hope I am not being offensive when I say" What I have read and understand Jesus was a Jew, his followers were of the Jewish faith". Undoubtedly true. But that was two millenia ago, back then, the Jews who followed the Jesus-sect hadn’t become a separate religion, as they have today. There were numerous points which can be pointed to as ‘breaking points’, the point in time where Christians did away with the covenant of circumcision in order to have more Gentiles in the fold is probably a good one, for instance. > [@FriarTed](#): > > if you seriously think Christian seeking to persuade Jews to faith in Jesus is the moral equivalent of Inquisitions, progroms and Shoahs, you really need to get some perspective. > > And I did all that without casting aspersions on your parenthood or your integrity as a human being. See how easy that was. Awwww, do you get your widdle feewings hurt when you lie, and I catch you lying, and then point out that you have no integrity? Suck it. P.S. While crowing about how you’re taking the high ground, you probably shouldn’t continue with your habit of lying, and invent an absurd position, pretend that I hold it instead of you simply making it up, and then tell me that I need perspective, like you. P.P.S. No shit, you support the fundamentally anti-Jewish, dishonest cult of Jews for Jesus? I never would’ve guessed (Oh, I know, I know, you’re fine with Jews as long as they’re Christians, right?). Something tells me, too, that you’re either dishonest enough or not smart enough to understand why supporting evangelical Christians in their drive to deceive Jews into converting might just be a scumfuck sort of thing to do. Oh, and, you going to explain how Bat Mitzvahs are part of “Jewish DNA” or “biblical Judaism”? No? You’re the kind of person who lies, _big_, in support of an agenda, and when you get caught you ignore it and try to change the subject? Whoops, there I go again, using facts about your conduct to reveal what kind of a person you are. I must be a terrible extremist. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/99 "2008-09-08T13:15:24Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > We evangelizing/prosletyzing/whatever Christians try to persuade others about Jesus for one reason- He is reported in the Gospels as having told us to. We believe everyone needs JC as Lord & Savior. Even those of us who believe & hope for the Universal Salvation of everyone also believe that they would be better off in this life with Jesus & that it would be wrong for us to withold the Gospel of Jesus from them. That is your belief and I respect it, but to me it just boils down to what human you believe as it can be proven that every thing that was written or taught was from some other human, or even our own thoughts are just human, unless of course we are God even then we would still be using a human mind to reason this out. When we Believe the Bible ,Koran, or any writing we are believing that a human had a insite into God. I could claim the same thing. I could say" God told me he had no religion.,or inspired me to do so. We believe what we were taught or decided what we want things to be. belief is just that, and each person has the right to decide what makes their life better as well as the people around them. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/100 "2008-09-08T13:21:49Z")
Oh, and speaking of extremism? Moderation is believing that everybody is free to choose their own path and discover their own route to their own religious truth. Extremism is believing that your way is the only valid one, and all tactics, up to and including deception, are valid for tricking people into following your path. Extremism plus a persecution complex is believing that your way is the only valid one, and all tactics, up to and including deception, are valid for tricking people into following your path, and that anybody who objects to what you’re doing is crazy and/or totally unreasonable, and that you’re being picked on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150.md?page=6)