# Okay Bricker, You've Made Up My Mind... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150 "2008-09-05T08:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/101 "2008-09-08T13:44:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Undoubtedly true. But that was two millenia ago, back then, the Jews who followed the Jesus-sect hadn’t become a separate religion, as they have today. There were numerous points which can be pointed to as ‘breaking points’, the point in time where Christians did away with the covenant of circumcision in order to have more Gentiles in the fold is probably a good one, for instance. > > Awwww, do you get your widdle feewings hurt when you lie, and I catch you lying, and then point out that you have no integrity? > Suck it. > > P.S. While crowing about how you’re taking the high ground, you probably shouldn’t continue with your habit of lying, and invent an absurd position, pretend that I hold it instead of you simply making it up, and then tell me that I need perspective, like you. > > P.P.S. No shit, you support the fundamentally anti-Jewish, dishonest cult of Jews for Jesus? I never would’ve guessed (Oh, I know, I know, you’re fine with Jews as long as they’re Christians, right?). Something tells me, too, that you’re either dishonest enough or not smart enough to understand why supporting evangelical Christians in their drive to deceive Jews into converting might just be a scumfuck sort of thing to do. > Oh, and, you going to explain how Bat Mitzvahs are part of “Jewish DNA” or “biblical Judaism”? > No? > You’re the kind of person who lies, _big_, in support of an agenda, and when you get caught you ignore it and try to change the subject? > > Whoops, there I go again, using facts about your conduct to reveal what kind of a person you are. I must be a terrible extremist. I accept your apology. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/102 "2008-09-08T13:52:53Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Cite please. > > I ask because I don’t believe the claim to be true as I know several who claim to be both Christian and Jewish. They’re ethnically Jewish and religiously Christian, but from the Jewish religious and political perspective, they are recognized as having put themselves outside the “tribe.” The are “expatriots” if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/103 "2008-09-09T09:40:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They’re ethnically Jewish and religiously Christian, but from the Jewish religious and political perspective, they are recognized as having put themselves outside the “tribe.” The are “expatriots” if you will. This isn’t really satisfactory as a cite. It does however answer my question. They are Jewish and Christian at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/104 "2008-09-09T15:43:07Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This isn’t really satisfactory as a cite. It does however answer my question. They are Jewish and Christian at the same time. Religiously and politically, they are only Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/105 "2008-09-09T15:47:29Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This isn’t really satisfactory as a cite. It does however answer my question. They are Jewish and Christian at the same time. I don’t know too many Jews who have converted, but a couple have said to me something along the lines of “I was raised Jewish” or “in a Jewish household.” They dont typically describe themselves as Jewish and Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/106 "2008-09-10T09:19:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Religiously and politically, they are only Christians. Not well phrased. The are not observant or Israelis, like a majority of Jewish people really. And hey! It’s me that knows them. They haven’t converted to anything and don’t practice much religion. By their heritage and ancestry they are Jews and no-one can say otherwise. They are also Christians in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/107 "2008-09-10T12:00:00Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Not well phrased. The are not observant or Israelis, like a majority of Jewish people really. > > And hey! It’s me that knows them. They haven’t converted to anything and don’t practice much religion. By their heritage and ancestry they are Jews and no-one can say otherwise. They are also Christians in the same way. This makes no sense. I think you’re using non-standard definitions here. If they haven’t converted, then they’re non-observant Jews. If they’re Christians, they’ve converted. Why would you bother to convert to Christianity if you’re just going to be a non-observant Christian? It doesn’t make any sense, even in the limited way that religion in general makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/108 "2008-09-10T14:00:55Z")
Sure there is. For instance, in pre-WWII Germany, there was a law that required you to tithe to the religious institution of your choice, and that choice was a public and official document. (That’s how we know that Hitler was, nominally, a Catholic.) Very secular, non-practicing persons of Jewish ancestry registered as Catholics or Lutherans without any intention of practicing that faith in any meaningful way, but simply to get out from under. In certain cases, people didn’t know they were Jewish until the Gestapo showed up at their door. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/109 "2008-09-10T14:03:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sure there is. For instance, in pre-WWII Germany, there was a law that required you to tithe to the religious institution of your choice, and that choice was a public and official document. (That’s how we know that Hitler was, nominally, a Catholic.) Very secular, non-practicing persons of Jewish ancestry registered as Catholics or Lutherans without any intention of practicing that faith in any meaningful way, but simply to get out from under. > > In certain cases, people didn’t know they were Jewish until the Gestapo showed up at their door. I was ready to argue that **Sevastopol** was talking about modern-day US, where nobody has to “officially” sign up as any religion, but then I realized I have no idea where **Sevasatopol** is posting from, so my point is possibly inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/110 "2008-09-10T14:47:18Z")
From the Twilight Zone. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/111 "2008-09-10T14:49:46Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > From the Twilight Zone. I get the impression that he’s posting from Israel. (Although he may prefer to say “occupied Palestine”.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150/112 "2008-09-10T14:53:35Z")
There was a comment upthread about how changing definitions make this a difficult discussion. Even within the Jewish community, there is some discord over what it means to be a Jew, with the ultra-Orthodox dismissing the Jewishness of those converts whose conversion was conducted by a Reform rabbi, for instance. (Which I don’t understand - is the _semicha_ of the Orthodox rabbi greater than that of the Reform rabbi? Did he perhaps receive his from the Vilna Gaon? But I digress.) There is a fundamental disconnect between Christianity and Judaism. “Jews for Jesus,” is, in my view, a deceptive method of prostyltizing, since it suggests that the two may be reconciled. I (of course!) support the effort to preach the gospels to anyone who isn’t a Christian, and to lead them to conversion. But conversions by any method other than an open and sincere explanation of what you’re explaining are meaningless. I heartily reject any assertion that the mere attempt to preach Christianity to Jews (or any non-Christians) is hateful or evil. But I agree that sulking under a “Jews for Jesus” cover is wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-bricker-youve-made-up-my-mind/462150.md?page=5)