# Okay, cop defenders, here's one for you (attempt to frame DUI driver) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002 "2009-08-01T21:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/41 "2009-08-02T13:32:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > If you rear end someone who stops, it is your fault. You are supposed to be far enough back to prevent such a thing happening. You have no excuse for rear ending someone, unless they are driving in reverse, then maybe. Or, more commonly, if someone cuts you off not giving you enough time to back off and maintain a safe distance. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/42 "2009-08-02T14:23:59Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Should be so easy to prove that there are then, huh? Or he could just not choose to feed the troll. Good for him. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/43 "2009-08-02T14:27:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > If you rear end someone who stops, it is your fault. You are supposed to be far enough back to prevent such a thing happening. You have no excuse for rear ending someone, unless they are driving in reverse, then maybe. Not always true. Exceptions to this driving myth have already been posited in this thread. Traffic law has circumstances built into it for drivers who indiscriminately slam on their brakes, causing others to rear-end them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/44 "2009-08-02T16:15:50Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What’s up with all the broad brushing here? So, there are bad cops. Doesn’t mean all cops are bad. Nope. There are great cops and lousy cops, just as there are great soldiers and lousy soldiers, great moderators and lousy moderators. It’s wrong to assume they did the wrong thing and it’s wrong to assume they did the right thing. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? We do. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/45 "2009-08-02T18:23:32Z")
The problem is not that there are bad cops. The problem is the police protect bad cops. The police rally around and it becomes us against them. The doctors have the same problem. They too are politically powerful and can keep doctors shielded from information about their mistakes. The default position for most people is that cops and doctors do a pretty good job. But we all have bumped into some that are in the wrong profession. Cops can not police cops. Doctors should not defend other doctors who are incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/46 "2009-08-02T19:40:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Edit: OK, you have to watch the video. I was going on the article which makes it sound like the cops are inventing the cat thing. Ah, ok, there actually was a cat. I also only read the article. Still, planning your lie in front of your own camera… ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/47 "2009-08-02T19:54:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The problem is not that there are bad cops. The problem is the police protect bad cops. The police rally around and it becomes us against them. The doctors have the same problem. They too are politically powerful and can keep doctors shielded from information about their mistakes. > The default position for most people is that cops and doctors do a pretty good job. But we all have bumped into some that are in the wrong profession. Cops can not police cops. Doctors should not defend other doctors who are incompetent. I don’t think I ever expected myself to say this in the BBQ Pit, but: That is a _great_ point, gonzomax. And for the record, I don’t know how many times I have to say it before people stop calling me a cop-hater for questioning a few very shady instances such as this one and some tasings, but I think the overwhelming majority of cops are awesome. I have several personal friends that are cops. My wife’s grandfather spent his entire career as a cop. One of my mountain biking buddies is a State Trooper (they call them DPS Agents in Arizona but no one outside the state knows what that means.) Every Phoenix cop I’ve interacted with has been great. I don’t think they fuck up too often. With all the thousands of citizen/police interactions that go on every day, there might be something questionable enough to make the national news twice a month or so. Even if a handful of incidents are slipping through the cracks (which I have no doubt they are), that’s still a great track record, percentage-wise. There IS a problem with them protecting their own when they fuck up, though. This is well established. And I cannot even grasp why the people who are completely ok with giving police the power to maintain order in our society (as I am) get so angry and offensive when abuses of that power are questioned. This was a **gross** abuse of power and trust, and we get, “What’s with all the broad-brushing? What’s the alternative, anarchy? Silliness.” Yes. The alternative to blindy trusting police and never questioning any of their actions is anarchy. :rolleyes:. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/48 "2009-08-02T20:36:33Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This was a **gross** abuse of power and trust, and we get, “What’s with all the broad-brushing? What’s the alternative, anarchy? Silliness.” > > Yes. The alternative to blindy trusting police and never questioning any of their actions is anarchy. :rolleyes:. I admit that that point wasn’t a good one, but I, for one, completely understand the frustration that gives rise to it, just as I completely understand the frustration that gives rise to crap like “OK, cop defenders!”. The fact that there are dozens of threads a year pointing out the misbehavior of bad police officers and maybe… what? One? Two?, that praise police officers, is sometimes a pain to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/49 "2009-08-02T20:42:13Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The fact that there are dozens of threads a year pointing out the misbehavior of bad police officers and maybe… what? One? Two?, that praise police officers, is sometimes a pain to deal with. Yeah, sometimes cops go above and beyond the call of duty, and we hear about it, and I’ll be the first one to praise them, but for the most part this reminds me of the Chris Rock bit: > [@](#): > > A nigga will brag about some shit a normal man just does. A nigga will say some shit like, “I take care of my kids.” You’re supposed to, you dumb motherfucker! What kind of ignorant shit is that? “I ain’t never been to jail!” What do you want, a cookie?! You’re not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having motherfucker! Cops are _supposed to_ do good deeds! They’re _supposed to_ serve and protect! And not only that, they chose their job. It wasn’t forced on them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/50 "2009-08-02T22:08:07Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I admit that that point wasn’t a good one, but I, for one, completely understand the frustration that gives rise to it, just as I completely understand the frustration that gives rise to crap like “OK, cop defenders!”. The fact that there are dozens of threads a year pointing out the misbehavior of bad police officers and maybe… what? One? Two?, that praise police officers, is sometimes a pain to deal with. How many threads are there that praise _anyone_? Yeah, cops catch more shit than a lot of professions (but no where near what lawyers come in for), but get a hell of a lot more praise than most (probably any except soldiers and firefighters). ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/51 "2009-08-02T22:11:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > How many threads are there that praise _anyone_? Yeah, cops catch more shit than a lot of professions (but no where near what lawyers come in for), but get a hell of a lot more praise than most (probably any except soldiers and firefighters). I’d like to see how many threads praise waitstaff and customer service people vs. how many bash them. I bet cops would win that comparison in a landslide. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/52 "2009-08-02T22:23:29Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’d like to see how many threads praise waitstaff and customer service people vs. how many bash them. I bet cops would win that comparison in a landslide. Or telemarketers! 😃 Now, there’s a job I have very rarely seen defended. But it has happened a few times. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/53 "2009-08-02T23:16:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’d like to see how many threads praise waitstaff and customer service people vs. how many bash them. I bet cops would win that comparison in a landslide. We argue endlessly about tipping though. Both fireman and cops get great press. There are a bunch of TV shows showing cops solving crimes within a one hour time limit. They are all beautiful people and have the highest standards possible. They get 50 hours of great press every week. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/54 "2009-08-02T23:20:39Z")
All I know is that cop who gave me a warning instead of a ticket when I’d parked in the fire lane to make a cellphone call outside the vet where I’d taken my cat to get declawed was a real mensch. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/55 "2009-08-03T01:02:29Z")
Those cops acted stupidly. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/56 "2009-08-03T01:27:58Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > And I cannot even grasp why the people who are completely ok with giving police the power to maintain order in our society (as I am) get so angry and offensive when abuses of that power are questioned. This was a **gross** abuse of power and trust, and we get, “What’s with all the broad-brushing? What’s the alternative, anarchy? Silliness.” I am not angry or offended, but I don’t get what the big deal is. The cops were jackasses and got themselves caught. Good. They obviously fucked up. It doesn’t surprise me, so I don’t have much outrage to share in, that there are unethical cops – just as there are thieves working in security, bad doctors, and self-serving politicians. They don’t deserve their jobs and all is right in the world when karma catches up with them and they lose their jobs. The thing is just because there are unethical cops, teachers, politicians, doctors, mechanics, cashiers, security guards, plumbers, et cetera, it’s idiotic to vilify the entire profession, as some here like to do. You can’t reasonably say, “I don’t trust teachers because of people like Debra Lefave.” Hey, you teacher defenders out there, what do you think of that? :rolleyes: That’s why I called it broad brushing. Does the OP expect anyone to defend bad cops’ behavior? Or is she using the story to try to convince us why we should think cops are just awful? Yes, it’s outrageous and disappointing when people in positions of public trust and power abuse both. It’s bad. It’s worse than when retail employees dip into the till, but it stems from the same place (lack of ethics) and I don’t see why anyone should believe that all cops are above unethical behavior just because they wear a badge. Though we wish differently, there’s always going to be a bad apple in every bunch be they teachers or cops. > [@](#): > > Yes. The alternative to blindy trusting police and never questioning any of their actions is anarchy. :rolleyes:. Who said you should blindly trust police? Don’t be an idiot, but it’s ridiculous to assume every cop is a bad one. Are we questioning the actions of cops who set themselves up on their own video tape? What’s to question? It seems pretty straight forward: bad apples. ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/57 "2009-08-03T01:55:34Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > …Does the OP expect anyone to defend bad cops’ behavior? Or is she using the story to try to convince us why we should think cops are just awful?.. I think it’s the first one. She didn’t seem to be implying all cops are bad, but instead that there are people on this board who will always the cops regardless of the situation. She was asking what those people have to say about this situation. Although, I’m not sure who those people are, since she didn’t cite any specific posts. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/58 "2009-08-03T02:00:21Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Yes, it’s outrageous and disappointing when people in positions of public trust and power abuse both. It’s bad. It’s worse than when retail employees dip into the till, but it stems from the same place (lack of ethics) and I don’t see why anyone should believe that all cops are above unethical behavior just because they wear a badge. Though we wish differently, there’s always going to be a bad apple in every bunch be they teachers or cops. Very often, and very simply, cops have the power to ruin your life. A teacher or a Home Depot cashier doesn’t have that. I think that’s a pretty strong argument for holding them to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/59 "2009-08-03T02:01:39Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Someone’s gotta work pawnshop detail, or patrol the harbor on a boat… That you, McNulty? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002/60 "2009-08-03T02:05:58Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I am not angry or offended, but I don’t get what the big deal is. The cops were jackasses and got themselves caught. Good. They obviously fucked up. It doesn’t surprise me, so I don’t have much outrage to share in, that there are unethical cops – just as there are thieves working in security, bad doctors, and self-serving politicians. They don’t deserve their jobs and all is right in the world when karma catches up with them and they lose their jobs. > > The thing is just because there are unethical cops, teachers, politicians, doctors, mechanics, cashiers, security guards, plumbers, et cetera, it’s idiotic to vilify the entire profession, as some here like to do. You can’t reasonably say, “I don’t trust teachers because of people like Debra Lefave.” Hey, you teacher defenders out there, what do you think of that? :rolleyes: That’s why I called it broad brushing. Does the OP expect anyone to defend bad cops’ behavior? Or is she using the story to try to convince us why we should think cops are just awful? > > Yes, it’s outrageous and disappointing when people in positions of public trust and power abuse both. It’s bad. It’s worse than when retail employees dip into the till, but it stems from the same place (lack of ethics) and I don’t see why anyone should believe that all cops are above unethical behavior just because they wear a badge. Though we wish differently, there’s always going to be a bad apple in every bunch be they teachers or cops. > Who said you should blindly trust police? Don’t be an idiot, but it’s ridiculous to assume every cop is a bad one. Are we questioning the actions of cops who set themselves up on their own video tape? What’s to question? It seems pretty straight forward: bad apples. Who assumes every cop is a bad one? We all know some decent cops. Some of us know good ones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-cop-defenders-heres-one-for-you-attempt-to-frame-dui-driver/505002.md?page=4)