# Okay, does or does not the current health care bill cover illegal immigrants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526 "2009-09-10T06:44:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/21 "2009-09-10T13:13:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, stop them from illegally entering the country, and penalize those who employ them. > > Regards, > Shodan Which has nothing to do with the current health care bill. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/22 "2009-09-10T13:14:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then we are agreed - Obamacare does cover illegal aliens, indirectly. > > Regards, > Shodan No, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![inquiringmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@inquiringmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inquiringmind)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/23 "2009-09-10T13:20:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No matter how you slice it, if an “illegal alien” (I use quotes because the phrase just sounds so McCarthyish but I don’t have a better one) has a burst appendix or something like it, he’s going to get care. Probably the hospital will have to eat the bill and just drive up costs for everybody else. As I see it, the question of whether illegals are included is quite pointless, just another way that the modern GOP exploits the latent racism in its dwindling base. I agree. On a bit of a side note, a huge number of illegals are coming through Mexico, not just from Mexico. Ultimately, the solution to illegal immigration is for other countries (primarily in Latin America) to reform themselves into places that people don’t want to leave. And there isn’t really anything we can do about that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/24 "2009-09-10T13:22:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No matter how you slice it, if an “illegal alien” (I use quotes because the phrase just sounds so McCarthyish but I don’t have a better one) . . . “Undocumented immigrant”? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/25 "2009-09-10T13:23:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then we are agreed - Obamacare does cover illegal aliens, indirectly. As does the Republican plan, and our current health care system. Wow, that’s amazing, all these different systems cover illegal aliens in exactly the same way. Let’s continue talking about how “Obamacare” covers illegal aliens, and get up in arms about it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/26 "2009-09-10T13:27:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, stop them from illegally entering the country, and penalize those who employ them. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but that barn door’s not only open, but the hinges are off. They. Are. Here. So what do we do when they get deathly ill? What’s your solution to that? You’ll note, I hope, that when I first asked this question, there was nothing in it about “How do we stop them from coming?” It was about “What do we do now that they’re here?” Do we refuse them medical care at all? Do we rewrite the laws requiring emergency rooms to stabilize a patient regardless of ability to pay to exclude them and let them die in the ambulance bay? What’s your solution to the actual problem I asked you about instead of a problem that I never mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/27 "2009-09-10T13:28:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then we are agreed - Obamacare does cover illegal aliens, indirectly. > > Regards, > Shodan Do you murder homeless people and rape small piglets, indirectly? I mean you don’t do anything to stop that, right? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/28 "2009-09-10T13:45:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Do you murder homeless people and rape small piglets, indirectly? > > I mean you don’t do anything to stop that, right? ftw ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/29 "2009-09-10T13:49:47Z")
Our current laws allow people to kill other people because murders still happen, right? The health care bill specifically states that illegal immigrants can’t get government money for their healthcare. If they do it, they’re doing it illegally, just like they’re in the country illegally and being employed illegally. They might also be driving illegal cars using fake licenses, and failing to pay tax on their illegal income. Yet no one is suggesting we scrap the INS, IRS and DMV on those grounds\*. - On other grounds, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/30 "2009-09-10T13:52:26Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > As does the Republican plan, and our current health care system. Wow, that’s amazing, all these different systems cover illegal aliens in exactly the same way. Let’s continue talking about how “Obamacare” covers illegal aliens, and get up in arms about it. This. ---
**Author:** ![InkBlot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5e925/32.png) [@InkBlot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InkBlot)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/31 "2009-09-10T14:44:44Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > My understanding is that the individual mandate provisions at issue apply to “resident aliens,” whether documented or not. So, undocumented aliens will be obliged to purchase insurance or face a fine, although it’s not clear how that would be enforced. The “fine” is a 2.5% tax on anyone (citizen or not) that does not have health insurance of some kind (Sec. 401 of the House bill). That 2.5% would be deducted straight from your paycheck like medicare and soc are today. So, illegal aliens (or resident aliens, the tax code doesn’t distinguish) would either have to get insurance, pay the tax, or find an employer that would keep them completely off the books…the latter being a much bigger pain for the employer. [(1)](http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm) [(2)](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml). So, to Shodan then, under Obamacare illegal aliens will be pulling more of their own weight than they are currently. Happier? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/32 "2009-09-10T15:04:06Z")
I propose that we appoint special Guardians to stand at emergency room doors, and turn away anyone who cannot exhaustively prove their legal status as regards citizenry. Such a person must be, of course, made of the sternest moral fiber and righteousness, as he may be required to prevent an illegal mom from obtaining care for her illegal whelp. I cannot immediately think of a person better suited for such service than our own friend **Shodan** , who’s unflinching rectitude and sharply defined humanity is a beacon to us all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/33 "2009-09-10T15:13:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > As does the Republican plan, and our current health care system. Wow, that’s amazing, all these different systems cover illegal aliens in exactly the same way. Let’s continue talking about how “Obamacare” covers illegal aliens, and get up in arms about it. Ring-a-ding-ding! We have a winner! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/34 "2009-09-10T15:22:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, stop them from illegally entering the country, and penalize those who employ them. > > Regards, > Shodan Answer the question, what do you do if they are in the ambulance and on the way to the emergency room already? Drop them off in the street? You avoided answering this but this is directly related to your position, whereas stopping them from entering the country and penalizing employers are a complete non-sequitor. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/35 "2009-09-10T15:41:36Z")
So is this what the whole dust-up is about? Is \*this \*why Joe Wilson could not control his shit, and screamed like a crazy person in the middle of Obama’s address to Congress? Because illegal immigrants have, currently do, and will continue to be treated in the emergency room? His inability to sit in a chair without wild outbursts has nothing to do with the actual proposed plan, which explicitly prohibits undocumented immigrants from being extended credits for government funded insurance? It’s because people aren’t asked for birth certificates when they’re bleeding from the head? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/36 "2009-09-10T16:33:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Source: [Politifact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/) [It’s not that simple.](http://www.cis.org/feere/healthcare) ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/37 "2009-09-10T16:43:38Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but that barn door’s not only open, but the hinges are off. They. Are. Here. So what do we do when they get deathly ill? What’s your solution to that? > > You’ll note, I hope, that when I first asked this question, there was nothing in it about “How do we stop them from coming?” It was about “What do we do now that they’re here?” Do we refuse them medical care at all? Do we rewrite the laws requiring emergency rooms to stabilize a patient regardless of ability to pay to exclude them and let them die in the ambulance bay? What’s your solution to the actual problem I asked you about instead of a problem that I never mentioned? Shodan was strictly referring to the OP’s question (which you seem to have bypassed in order to turn this into a moral dilemma) In order for illegals to be treated, Obamacare will have that cost built in. It really is that simple. Not, what do we do with them, or how do we stop them from getting here. IT IS WHO PAYS FOR THEM ONCE THEY ARE HERE. The answer to that is: We do. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/38 "2009-09-10T16:53:22Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > In order for illegals to be treated, Obamacare will have that cost built in. It really is that simple. It’s not that simple, when the “yes” is used to attack the program, and “yes” is an appropriate answer for all of our proposed health care systems. You may as well accuse WalMart of supporting shoplifters because they charge slightly higher prices to cover theft, and don’t strip search everyone when they leave the store. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/39 "2009-09-10T16:53:44Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Shodan was strictly referring to the OP’s question (which you seem to have bypassed in order to turn this into a moral dilemma) > > In order for illegals to be treated, Obamacare will have that cost built in. It really is that simple. > Not, what do we do with them, or how do we stop them from getting here. > > IT IS WHO PAYS FOR THEM ONCE THEY ARE HERE. The answer to that is: We do. But we ALREADY DO! This isn’t something that’s suddenly unique to the health care bills before Congress in this session. The emergency rooms must treat them, and someone has to pay for it. But they are not _formally_ covered by ANY current or future healthcare plan, which is what we’re talking about. And the fact that you think that _ **I** _ “turned this” into a moral dilemma is only an indication of the moral bankruptcy of the GOP. No one “turned this” into a moral dilemma, it ALREADY IS! The only way to NOT pay for illegal aliens receiving emergency care is to exempt illegal aliens from the law that says that ERs have to stabilize a patient who presents to them no matter his/her ability to pay. It’s not something you can finesse around…if you complain that “Obamacare” covers illegal aliens, are informed that the bill specifically forbids such, then try to say that it covers them because it has to make up the deficit that treating illegal aliens according to the existing laws causes, then you are backing right into the moral dilemma if you argue against it. ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/40 "2009-09-10T17:08:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [It’s not that simple.](http://www.cis.org/feere/healthcare) I actually can’t find a point in this document. The last third of it is just invective against how much those illegal folk cost our health care system because of laws requiring emergency rooms to treat whoever comes in with a burst appendix; this seems like an irrelevant attempt to throw dust up in everyone’s eyes and confuse the issue, since it’s the status quo and there’s no feasible (let alone humane!) way to have only illegal immigrants excluded from ERs. It’s just padding to make uncritical readers associate Obama with helping out those lazy brown parasites. Before that, they correctly point out that American citizens will pay a fine if they don’t buy into the public option or other insurance. Then they complain that illegal immigrants will be excluded from the fine, treating it like it’s a preferential treatment instead of a simple result of the undocumented not being allowed to benefit from health care reform. This is mind-numbingly stupid. They complain that the bill doesn’t affirmatively state which immigrants are allowed. This is despite the fact that the bill explicitly states that immigrants who are not lawfully present in the USA are not eligible. This is, again, mind-numbingly stupid. If they were complaining about people with green cards or student visas being allowed to work with the system, that would be a understandable position, even if mean-hearted. But the way they portray it, it’s a giant loophole to allow the unwashed Mexican hoards sneak into the system. The initial point they make on the face of it has some logic to it, however. They claim that there won’t be an effective enforcement mechanism. > [@](#): > > Typically, aliens wishing to access taxpayer-funded benefits via a social program must be vetted through the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) program in order to verify legal status. It is used in determining aid eligibility for a number of governmental programs – e.g. Medicaid, TANF – and you would expect Congress to mandate the use of SAVE in the health care legislation, but the bill does not. U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services explains that the SAVE program is “designed to aid benefit-granting agencies in determining an applicant’s immigration status, and thereby ensure that only entitled applicants receive federal, state, or local public benefit.” > > One congressman attempted to amend the health care bill in order to ensure illegal aliens could not benefit. Among other things, the amendment would have mandated the use of the SAVE program. However, the amendment failed by one vote. This amendment’s failure to pass indicates that Congress is not serious about preventing illegal aliens from accessing taxpayer-subsidized health care under the new proposal. I think, well, using the SAVE program sounds reasonable. But then I went back and noticed: > [@](#): > > **Among other things** , the amendment would have mandated the use of the SAVE program. The paper gives no indication as to what those “other things” were. I’m not able to Google the answer of what exactly is going on there because of all the right wing noise that pops up. Given the duplicity that comes later, I’m not prone to give them the benefit of the doubt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526.md?page=3)