# Okay, does or does not the current health care bill cover illegal immigrants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526 "2009-09-10T06:44:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/41 "2009-09-10T17:15:09Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > But we ALREADY DO! This isn’t something that’s suddenly unique to the health care bills before Congress in this session. The emergency rooms must treat them, and someone has to pay for it. But they are not _formally_ covered by ANY current or future healthcare plan, which is what we’re talking about. > > And the fact that you think that _ **I** _ “turned this” into a moral dilemma is only an indication of the moral bankruptcy of the GOP. No one “turned this” into a moral dilemma, it ALREADY IS! The only way to NOT pay for illegal aliens receiving emergency care is to exempt illegal aliens from the law that says that ERs have to stabilize a patient who presents to them no matter his/her ability to pay. It’s not something you can finesse around…if you complain that “Obamacare” covers illegal aliens, are informed that the bill specifically forbids such, then try to say that it covers them because it has to make up the deficit that treating illegal aliens according to the existing laws causes, then you are backing right into the moral dilemma if you argue against it. And no one is arguing that point, however the corollary to this stimulating discussion is that in order to do the second, the first must be accomplished if you wish to decrease the cost of health care. For an instance: If we are going to do something which could potentially cost a trillion dollars, is there a way for it to be done which costs less? This might not entail the USG running anything and instead focus on health care reform measures(which might not encompass a UHC). ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/42 "2009-09-10T17:16:09Z")
Really a moot point. Even if a bill restricts treatment for illegals, once awarded amnesty they will qualify anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/43 "2009-09-10T17:22:40Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Really a moot point. Even if a bill restricts treatment for illegals, once awarded amnesty they will qualify anyway. If you can get them to pay taxes then amnesty is a really really great deal! But what about the next wave? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/44 "2009-09-10T17:22:45Z")
Clairovoyance offered as evidence? Cool! Do we get to do that too, or just you? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/45 "2009-09-10T17:23:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Clairovoyance offered as evidence? Cool! Do we get to do that too, or just you? Search your feelings and you will find the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/46 "2009-09-10T17:27:09Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > And no one is arguing that point, however the corollary to this stimulating discussion is that in order to do the second, the first must be accomplished if you wish to decrease the cost of health care. > > For an instance: If we are going to do something which could potentially cost a trillion dollars, is there a way for it to be done which costs less? This might not entail the USG running anything and instead focus on health care reform measures(which might not encompass a UHC). In theory it should cost less. If an illegal alien in the US gets sick or injured they have to go to the Emergency Room. ER costs are far, far beyond the costs of seeing a doctor. Now, some things demand an ER visit but your kid having, say, the flu could (and should) be seen by a doctor in their office for a fraction of the cost of the ER. Unfortunately today that mother will trundle into the ER to have her kid with the flu checked out. That is a far more expensive proposition as well as overloading ERs (which is a real problem as well). ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/47 "2009-09-10T17:27:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Clairovoyance offered as evidence? Cool! Do we get to do that too, or just you? Heh, I am filing all of your one liners when you contribute nothing to the discussion. I fear I may run out of storage soon. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/48 "2009-09-10T17:31:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In theory it should cost less. > > If an illegal alien in the US gets sick or injured they have to go to the Emergency Room. ER costs are far, far beyond the costs of seeing a doctor. Now, some things demand an ER visit but your kid having, say, the flu could (and should) be seen by a doctor in their office for a fraction of the cost of the ER. Unfortunately today that mother will trundle into the ER to have her kid with the flu checked out. That is a far more expensive proposition as well as overloading ERs (which is a real problem as well). Well, not if you combine it with a way to deter people here illegally. I hear what you are saying and what someone else said about amnesty. Do the people believe that those who receive amnesty are going to be the very last illegals to enter our country? Why do we lax so much in enforcement? Can nothing be done? I am sure enforcement costs money but does it costs as much to the taxpayer as the increased costs of medical insurance due to the same problem? Also, did she have the kid here illegally? If so, hey he is covered and so is she! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/49 "2009-09-10T17:33:21Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Heh, I am filing all of your one liners when you contribute nothing to the discussion. > > I fear I may run out of storage soon. The Sioux have a saying, that when you throw a rock at a pack of dogs in the dark, the one that barks is the one that was hit. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/50 "2009-09-10T17:38:36Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Well, not if you combine it with a way to deter people here illegally. I hear what you are saying and what someone else said about amnesty. Do the people believe that those who receive amnesty are going to be the very last illegals to enter our country? > Why do we lax so much in enforcement? Can nothing be done? I am sure enforcement costs money but does it costs as much to the taxpayer as the increased costs of medical insurance due to the same problem? > > Also, did she have the kid here illegally? If so, hey he is covered and so is she! Illegal immigration has been with us as long as I can remember and I presume before that too. Guess we need a bigger wall, mines, auto-targeting machines guns, rabid wolves and a lot more guards. Remember as well that a lot of business relies on illegal immigrants. I saw an interview with a farmer (I forget where) who was decidedly conservative and decrying the blight that is illegal immigration who, without missing a beat or seeing any inconsistency, then said he absolutely depended on migrant workers for his harvest. There was no way in hell he could pay minimum wage to US workers and stay in business and he also noted that Americans were awful workers (demanding breaks, 8 hour maximum day then overtime, slow) compared to the migrant workers who really get the job done fast and well and don’t bitch. Want your apples to go from a staple to a luxury? It may be that the US does not try _too_ hard to stem illegal immigration because to an extent a lot of people depend on illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/51 "2009-09-10T17:46:27Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > I actually can’t find a point in this document. The last third of it is just invective against how much those illegal folk cost our health care system because of laws requiring emergency rooms to treat whoever comes in with a burst appendix; this seems like an irrelevant attempt to throw dust up in everyone’s eyes and confuse the issue, since it’s the status quo and there’s no feasible (let alone humane!) way to have only illegal immigrants excluded from ERs. It’s just padding to make uncritical readers associate Obama with helping out those lazy brown parasites. > > Before that, they correctly point out that American citizens will pay a fine if they don’t buy into the public option or other insurance. Then they complain that illegal immigrants will be excluded from the fine, treating it like it’s a preferential treatment instead of a simple result of the undocumented not being allowed to benefit from health care reform. This is mind-numbingly stupid. This is why interjecting illegal immigrants into every conversation is so silly. To the extent someone has an issue with illegal immigration, there will be that problem with almost everything. Yes, there will be undocumented residents going to school, going to emergency rooms in dire health situations, walking on sidewalks paid for by tax dollars, etc. Do we really need to hold up funding for construction projects because illegals will make use of them? I seriously think that’s what’s next. The illegal immigration debate is a separate one entirely, and tossing it into everything ranging from school vouchers to Cash for Clunkers is dizzying. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/52 "2009-09-10T19:13:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Illegal immigration has been with us as long as I can remember and I presume before that too. > > Guess we need a bigger wall, mines, auto-targeting machines guns, rabid wolves and a lot more guards. > > Remember as well that a lot of business relies on illegal immigrants. I saw an interview with a farmer (I forget where) who was decidedly conservative and decrying the blight that is illegal immigration who, without missing a beat or seeing any inconsistency, then said he absolutely depended on migrant workers for his harvest. There was no way in hell he could pay minimum wage to US workers and stay in business and he also noted that Americans were awful workers (demanding breaks, 8 hour maximum day then overtime, slow) compared to the migrant workers who really get the job done fast and well and don’t bitch. > > Want your apples to go from a staple to a luxury? > > It may be that the US does not try _too_ hard to stem illegal immigration because to an extent a lot of people depend on illegal immigrants. Which is why I didn’t want to get into the points of why and what and where. Originally it was a question that was asked that the liberals have been avoiding. That answer was yes, they are covered whether or not the wording for UHC states otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/53 "2009-09-10T19:21:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Sioux have a saying, that when you throw a rock at a pack of dogs in the dark, the one that barks is the one that was hit. I prefer “If you’re taking a lot of flak, you’re probably over the target”. But that probably just reflects our diverse movie-watching tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/54 "2009-09-10T19:31:54Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Which is why I didn’t want to get into the points of why and what and where. Originally it was a question that was asked that the liberals have been avoiding. That answer was yes, they are covered whether or not the wording for UHC states otherwise. If by “covered” you mean that one way or another we all pay for anyone who is unisured’s health care when they walk into an ER then yeah, they are covered. Everyone is. We already have UHC! Woot! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/55 "2009-09-10T19:39:31Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Which is why I didn’t want to get into the points of why and what and where. Originally it was a question that was asked that the liberals have been avoiding. That answer was yes, they are covered whether or not the wording for UHC states otherwise. It sounds like you are a bit unclear on the concept here. If illegals pay full freight for insurance from a public option, do you object? Some low income people will get subsidies - they don’t qualify for this. Any problem? The insurance issue is totally separate from the emergency room issue. The uninsured today who walk into the emergency room (citizen or whatever) are raising the cost of insurance. If you get more people covered by a UHC you will lower it, both by getting more people to pay something and by more efficiency, as **Whack-a-Mole** said. You responded by deterrence. Is your method letting them die outside of the ER and sending the video back to Mexico? I don’t quite understand what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/56 "2009-09-10T19:40:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If by “covered” you mean that one way or another we all pay for anyone who is unisured’s health care when they walk into an ER then yeah, they are covered. Everyone is. We already have UHC! Woot! :rolleyes: This was actually a GOP talking point…“You already have UHC! Any sick person can go to the ER!” ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/57 "2009-09-10T20:04:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It sounds like you are a bit unclear on the concept here. If illegals pay full freight for insurance from a public option, do you object? Some low income people will get subsidies - they don’t qualify for this. Any problem? > The insurance issue is totally separate from the emergency room issue. The uninsured today who walk into the emergency room (citizen or whatever) are raising the cost of insurance. If you get more people covered by a UHC you will lower it, both by getting more people to pay something and by more efficiency, as **Whack-a-Mole** said. > You responded by deterrence. Is your method letting them die outside of the ER and sending the video back to Mexico? I don’t quite understand what you mean. If you asking for my optimal solution to the problem, it is not so cut and dried. Deterrence to me could be the most cost effective of a couple of different solutions. 1. We can deter any and all illegal immigration (however you see fit, although financially sound) 2. Provide amnesty BUT with significant enforcement of the payment of taxes (Currently, most illegal immigrants send money back home and claim \> 6 dependents so they aren’t paying much) This might classify as the foot your own bill. 3. Make no changes to the immigration problem and assume that they won’t use health care any more than they do now (I call this the Ostrich syndrome) The bottom line is that regardless of what gets done or not done about public health care (as we obviously differ upon what we want) Illegal immigration has it’s hands in many pockets. Health care just being the current one we are talking about. How much money could be made from these illegal immigrants if we provided them with amnesty and started collecting taxes? Likely not as much as the Lib’s think they are going to get by taxing the rich but it might help offset the current expenditures on ER visits by the same immigrants here illegally or otherwise. I’ve seen conversation with conservatives asking the liberals what they thought of a voluntary ‘low income’ health care plan to take care of those who are in dire need? Kind of like Medicare or caid, or WIC. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/58 "2009-09-10T20:17:47Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If you asking for my optimal solution to the problem, it is not so cut and dried. Deterrence to me could be the most cost effective of a couple of different solutions. > > 1. We can deter any and all illegal immigration (however you see fit, although financially sound) > > 2. Provide amnesty BUT with significant enforcement of the payment of taxes (Currently, most illegal immigrants send money back home and claim \> 6 dependents so they aren’t paying much) This might classify as the foot your own bill. > > 3. Make no changes to the immigration problem and assume that they won’t use health care any more than they do now (I call this the Ostrich syndrome) > > The bottom line is that regardless of what gets done or not done about public health care (as we obviously differ upon what we want) Illegal immigration has it’s hands in many pockets. Health care just being the current one we are talking about. > > How much money could be made from these illegal immigrants if we provided them with amnesty and started collecting taxes? Likely not as much as the Lib’s think they are going to get by taxing the rich but it might help offset the current expenditures on ER visits by the same immigrants here illegally or otherwise. > > I’ve seen conversation with conservatives asking the liberals what they thought of a voluntary ‘low income’ health care plan to take care of those who are in dire need? Kind of like Medicare or caid, or WIC. Stop the bus. Your proposed solutions are all about curbing illegal immigration. Are you saying the brakes should be placed on health care reform until we can stop illegal immigration? Should the brakes be placed on any program that illegal immigrants may get some benefit from somehow? No new roads until we can stop illegal immigrants from using them? In any case, we’re not even dealing with a bill that is offering to assist undocumented residents with paying for health care costs. We’re talking about a bill that does not have explicitly state that we must require proof of legal residency before admitting anyone into the ER. We’ve never done that, so the question is how do you want to address the issue of people who show up with head wounds, but can’t cough up a birth certificate. Are we going to in circles, because your answer will be “deterrence” again? ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/59 "2009-09-10T20:43:40Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > We’ve never done that, so the question is how do you want to address the issue of people who show up with head wounds, but can’t cough up a birth certificate. Would a certificate of live birth do? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/60 "2009-09-10T20:46:57Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > The bottom line is that regardless of what gets done or not done about public health care (as we obviously differ upon what we want) Illegal immigration has it’s hands in many pockets. Health care just being the current one we are talking about. As noted illegal immigrants mean you get cheap produce. The costs to harvest if you have to pay American minimum wage plus overtime plus benefits would be staggering to most farmers that need this service. A lot of inexpensive produce you get comes with these guys behind it. Is that enough to offset what they take out of your pocket? Not sure. Enough to offset the collapse of many farms which could not pay for American labor? I do not know. But keep it in mind. There is more to this than illegal aliens bilking you of your money. It extends to more than farms too. Generally illegal aliens do a lot of the scut work no one else wants to do and they do it cheaply. Heck, not even always scut work. I could take you to a place in Chicago where skilled laborers (and unskilled) line up every morning. I asked the gas station attendant when I was there what the deal was. He said construction firms would roll up in a truck (knowing this is there) and would say they need (say) two carpenters and someone to shovel shit. $50 each for the day, $30 for the shoveller. Guys with the skills would raise their hands, foreman dude would pick out a few and off they’d go. Talking to the attendant he said that happens everyday and apparently these guys are known for working hard so are sought after. Anyway, your hands are in their pocket too as you benefit from their cheap labor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526.md?page=4)