# Okay, does or does not the current health care bill cover illegal immigrants? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526 "2009-09-10T06:44:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/61 "2009-09-10T20:47:03Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > …(Currently, most illegal immigrants send money back home and claim \> 6 dependents so they aren’t paying much) … I find your lack of cite disturbing… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/62 "2009-09-10T23:00:45Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If you asking for my optimal solution to the problem, it is not so cut and dried. Deterrence to me could be the most cost effective of a couple of different solutions. > > 1. We can deter any and all illegal immigration (however you see fit, although financially sound) > > 2. Provide amnesty BUT with significant enforcement of the payment of taxes (Currently, most illegal immigrants send money back home and claim \> 6 dependents so they aren’t paying much) This might classify as the foot your own bill. > > 3. Make no changes to the immigration problem and assume that they won’t use health care any more than they do now (I call this the Ostrich syndrome) > > The bottom line is that regardless of what gets done or not done about public health care (as we obviously differ upon what we want) Illegal immigration has it’s hands in many pockets. Health care just being the current one we are talking about. > > How much money could be made from these illegal immigrants if we provided them with amnesty and started collecting taxes? Likely not as much as the Lib’s think they are going to get by taxing the rich but it might help offset the current expenditures on ER visits by the same immigrants here illegally or otherwise. > > I’ve seen conversation with conservatives asking the liberals what they thought of a voluntary ‘low income’ health care plan to take care of those who are in dire need? Kind of like Medicare or caid, or WIC. Since Shodan’s high-tailed it out of the topic, maybe you can answer? You’re the hospital director in charge of a place that just took a Mexican-looking guy into the ER for a serious injury. He can’t speak English and has no ID. What do you do? Stop dodging the question and answer that and maybe you’ll see why Obama’s health care reform does not really cover illegals any more than health care has ever done. To make that argument or single out Obama’s health plan as somehow illegal-friendly is dishonest ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/63 "2009-09-10T23:28:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I find your lack of cite disturbing… Me too. In general illegal immigrants try to avoid doing anything which will call attention to themselves. Claiming six dependents (which requires making up even more social security numbers) would seem to increase the chances of getting audited, and that is something they are unlikely to do. You can claim 6 dependents for withholding, sure, but then you owe a bundle at tax time. That can also lead to penalties, and big trouble if you can’t pay. Anyhow, I kind of wonder if the anti-immigration right would be willing to boost their taxes enough to pay for this border fence with moats and flaming oil and alligators they seem to want. It would be a hell of a stimulus package - except that I seem to recall that the contractors building the fence already on order used Mexican labor. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/64 "2009-09-10T23:30:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I find your lack of cite disturbing… Excellente Senor Luci. Good to see you’re as good as your word. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/65 "2009-09-10T23:33:05Z")
I just found out about this thread. Go find the text of the actual bill. I’ve searched it for the words “illegal”, “alien”, “immigration”, “status”, “enforce”, “check”, and “verif” to cover verify/verification. I found nothing that even mentions using a method to find out someone’s resident status. Then my college buddy says, “This was deliberately left out? Are you serious?” So, everything else in this bill was lovingly crafted and purposely put in, but the lack of a measure to ensure the actual HAPPENING of one of the big selling points of the bill was just a matter of “Oops! I forgot!” ??? If you think the Democrats forgot this, you’re very disappointingly naive. You can get me into a rant about Republican liars in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/66 "2009-09-10T23:56:19Z")
It’s an incorrect assumption that the two options for illegal aliens are to treat them or ignore them. The third option is to medically stabilize them and then deport them. Given the cost of healthcare, this would still be financially viable; the overall cost of deportation would be less than the cost of any protracted care. I consider it unlikely that illegal aliens would suddenly get routine care from those caregivers who don’t want to extend it. This is not, of course, a comment on what is morally right. However it does occur to me that if one’s moral paradigm includes an obligation to extend full medical benefits to an illegal immigrant, then that paradigm makes it immoral to even have the concept of “illegal immigrant.” Perhaps that is part of the debate… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/67 "2009-09-11T00:02:14Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It’s an incorrect assumption that the two options for illegal aliens are to treat them or ignore them. > > The third option is to medically stabilize them and then deport them. Given the cost of healthcare, this would still be financially viable; the overall cost of deportation would be less than the cost of any protracted care. There is the little issue of patient confidentiality. Plus, would this proposal anyone who looked illegal to be held in the emergency room (at gunpoint?) until the federales come? What about the children whose parents won’t take them for care for fear of being deported, and die? Given how fast word spreads, this proposal is functionally equivalent to not letting them in the door. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/68 "2009-09-11T00:05:02Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Excellente Senor Luci. Good to see you’re as good as your word. Talent borrows, genius steals. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/69 "2009-09-11T00:14:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Talent borrows, genius steals. Hey, that’s my stolen quote! ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/70 "2009-09-11T00:23:00Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I just found out about this thread. > > Go find the text of the actual bill. I’ve searched it for the words “illegal”, “alien”, “immigration”, “status”, “enforce”, “check”, and “verif” to cover verify/verification. I found nothing that even mentions using a method to find out someone’s resident status. > > Then my college buddy says, “This was deliberately left out? Are you serious?” > > So, everything else in this bill was lovingly crafted and purposely put in, but the lack of a measure to ensure the actual HAPPENING of one of the big selling points of the bill was just a matter of “Oops! I forgot!” ??? If you think the Democrats forgot this, you’re very disappointingly naive. > > You can get me into a rant about Republican liars in another thread. This was mentioned on NPR the other night. I’m not familiar with how the current system works in terms of proving citizenship and/or legal immigration status but it was noted that there were problems with actual US citizens being able to prove their citizenship - I don’t know if this means elderly folks who don’t tote birth certificates around with them or poor people having problems or 50% of the population being mentally incompetent but for whatever reason, that was one factor with removing that proviso. Not just as simple as “Democrats took it out so that illegal aliens could slide in under the radar”. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/71 "2009-09-11T00:40:22Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > Go find the text of the actual bill. I’ve searched it for the words “illegal”, “alien”, “immigration”, “status”, “enforce”, “check”, and “verif” to cover verify/verification. I found nothing that even mentions using a method to find out someone’s resident status. The “method” of determining someone’s resident status is reading their application for the affordability credit. It is clear and unambiguous that illegal immigrants do not qualify for credits, and the only way to get them is to apply. If they’re not trying to get federal funding for their insurance purchase, they’re paying their full fair share, and their immigration status is irrelevant\*. \*Irrelevant in that illegal immigrants (and everyone else) are still allowed to purchase goods and services without having to prove their immigration status. There is absolutely no reason to demand immigration status for this one type of service, when the vast majority of others do not require it. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/72 "2009-09-11T00:50:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There is the little issue of patient confidentiality. Plus, would this proposal anyone who looked illegal to be held in the emergency room (at gunpoint?) until the federales come? What about the children whose parents won’t take them for care for fear of being deported, and die? Given how fast word spreads, this proposal is functionally equivalent to not letting them in the door. What has confidentiality around a medical condition to do with citizenship? One could easily write a law which permits asking for citizenship proof if no insurance (required of citizens) is presented… As far as the notion that because fear of deportation would prevent someone from seeking care–well that’s part of the decision process made when you illegally enter a foreign country, is it not? I do not disagree that there is no broad willingness to enforce such a policy, and it is for that reason I mentioned in my first post on this thread that the intention of the healthcare bill is to extend medical benefits to illegal aliens, regardless of how the law is written, or how the bill is positioned, or how Mr Obama wordsmiths dancing around this issue. I am simply making the comment at this time that it is a false dichotomy to assume we either have to completely cover illegal aliens or let them die. The third alternative is to stabilize their condition and then deport them. There may be hundreds of thousands of dollars difference in diagnosing your acute leukemia and deporting you versus carrying your treatment throught to a bone marrow transplant, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/73 "2009-09-11T01:23:53Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I just found out about this thread. > > Go find the text of the actual bill. I’ve searched it for the words “illegal”, “alien”, “immigration”, “status”, “enforce”, “check”, and “verif” to cover verify/verification. I found nothing that even mentions using a method to find out someone’s resident status. > > Then my college buddy says, “This was deliberately left out? Are you serious?” > > So, everything else in this bill was lovingly crafted and purposely put in, but the lack of a measure to ensure the actual HAPPENING of one of the big selling points of the bill was just a matter of “Oops! I forgot!” ??? If you think the Democrats forgot this, you’re very disappointingly naive. > > You can get me into a rant about Republican liars in another thread. I’m not sure how you missed it. It’s clear as day. Section 241(b)(1) says: > [@HR 3200](#): > > An Exchange eligible individual may apply to the Commissioner through the Health Insurance Exchange or through another entity under an arrangement made with the Commissioner, in a form and manner specified by the Commissioner. The Commissioner through the Health Insurance Exchange or through another public entity under an arrangement made with the Commissioner shall make a determination as to eligibility of an individual for affordability credits under this subtitle. The Commissioner shall establish a process whereby, on the basis of information otherwise available, individuals may be deemed to be affordable credit eligible individuals. In carrying this subtitle, the Commissioner shall establish effective methods that ensure that individuals with limited English proficiency are able to apply for affordability credits. Clearly, the method used to determine eligibility is to be determined by the Health Commisioner. This is as it should be; it’s not the job of the Congress to specify all the minutiae of a bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/74 "2009-09-11T01:25:19Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I do not disagree that there is no broad willingness to enforce such a policy, and it is for that reason I mentioned in my first post on this thread that the intention of the healthcare bill is to extend medical benefits to illegal aliens, regardless of how the law is written, or how the bill is positioned, or how Mr Obama wordsmiths dancing around this issue. You have no factual basis for that argument. See my post above. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/75 "2009-09-11T01:26:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Hey, that’s my stolen quote! Not any more. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/76 "2009-09-11T01:56:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > You have no factual basis for that argument. See my post above. Let’s put it this way: if this healthcare bill passes, illegal immigrants will have essentially unlimited access to healthcare. The healthcare system will not create nor enforce a citizenship litmus test of any kind. To the extent that healthcare for those whose premiums do not cover the cost of their healthcare is paid for by all others, healthcare will have been provided to illegal aliens on a much broader basis than it is now. Any argument to the contrary is disingenuous and naive. I am not taking a position on whether or not this is the correct thing to do, but the answer to the OP is: this healthcare bill will result in healthcare coverage for illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/77 "2009-09-11T02:20:35Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Let’s put it this way: if this healthcare bill passes, illegal immigrants will have essentially unlimited access to healthcare. The healthcare system will not create nor enforce a citizenship litmus test of any kind. To the extent that healthcare for those whose premiums do not cover the cost of their healthcare is paid for by all others, healthcare will have been provided to illegal aliens on a much broader basis than it is now. > > Any argument to the contrary is disingenuous and naive. > > I am not taking a position on whether or not this is the correct thing to do, but the answer to the OP is: this healthcare bill will result in healthcare coverage for illegal immigrants. Nope, it will just mean that illegals will be the only ones left to play the “wait until it is almost too late and then to to the ER” game that many Americans have to play nowadays. And really, currently many states do not want to turn their doctors into paid informants of the immigration office. Unless you want to play the inhuman card, and after this health care plan is approved, illegals will continue to be treated like the poor, uncovered and undercovered Americans of today are. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/78 "2009-09-11T03:11:44Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Does the bill do so, or does it not? It’s easy enough to make it so the answer is “both.” For one, note that the Hispanic Caucus only objects to _enforcement_. So all you have to do is put in there that illegals are not covered … and then also write a provision that prevents the “public option” insurer from ever asking about immigration status. _Mirabile dictu_, you can now guarantee care for all the illegals, while still plausibly denying you’ve done so. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/79 "2009-09-11T03:24:18Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So what’s your solution? Let 'em die if they can’t produce a green card? Deport them . . . to Chad ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526/80 "2009-09-11T05:57:29Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > What has confidentiality around a medical condition to do with citizenship? One could easily write a law which permits asking for citizenship proof if no insurance (required of citizens) is presented… > > As far as the notion that because fear of deportation would prevent someone from seeking care–well that’s part of the decision process made when you illegally enter a foreign country, is it not? [Here](http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1448024)is a paper about this very subject. Some of the points made: - children who are legal residents by being born here might not get care because their parents are scared or are unaware that the children should be covered. - There are laws mandating care in life threatening situations. Why have the situation where a cheap to treat case becomes expensive through lack of care? - And the best - if an illegal immigrant gets a communicable disease, and is scared to get it treated, he may spread it further. He also makes some of the points already raised, about the expense and delay of going through paperwork, some of which those legally here might not have. Should the clinic check everyone, or just those who look Hispanic? As for the decision process, I’m sure the prospect of being able to send money back to one’s family would outweigh hypotheticals about getting sick later. We all do things with the possibility of risk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-does-or-does-not-the-current-health-care-bill-cover-illegal-immigrants/509526.md?page=5)