# Okay, everyone that gets their panties all in a twist over cyclists, in here! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110 "2005-07-19T06:49:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/181 "2005-07-27T19:12:11Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Thanks. It is also “one for every 11.4 million miles, or over 5 times the rate for all vehicles driven in NYC, and triple the rate for heavy trucks.” IIRC, NYC had a problem with its bus drivers jumping green lights early in the mid 90’s. That might have had some consequences, although I wonder if the bus vs car ratio went up as well? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/182 "2005-07-27T22:26:56Z")
I dunno. I’m just glad it’s a beautiful day, it’s gonna be a cool evening, my garbage-picked Fuji is ready for derailleur adjustment, and I don’t live anywhere close to NYC. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/183 "2005-07-28T02:46:42Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You need to get your relative and your absolute sorted out. > > Further, the numbers for a city like NY are precious little. They do not justify the sort of finger pointing against cyclists that this thread evinces. Two hundred and ninety eight of anything in an extremely busy city of millions is nuthin’. You didn’t read much of the site did you? That number was down from previous years BECAUSE of the police fining bikers who didn’t comply. You seem to be advocating that bicyclists ride any old place they want to, becaues after all, not many people get hurt by them. Apparently cities like NYC disagree, else why would they have cracked down on the problem in the first place? > [@](#): > > , I have to say I didn’t miss much. > > Do I think cyclists never do anything wrong? Why the fuck would you think so? Why would you even ask such a stupid question? Because your attitude seems to be that they don’t, and that they should be allowed to ride on sidewalks if they want to. After all, MY first post was in response to you disagreeing with **oalua’s** post in which he/she was talking about how bikers get all bent out of shape about motorists, but see no problem causing trouble on the sidewalks with pedestrians. You pooh-poohed such a problem as being non-existant, and no eal reason to make bikers also follow rules of the road and sidewalk, since they’re MUCH more endangered by autos than walkers are by them. And with every post I answered, you refused to see that there was ANYTHING wrong that cyclists may do. There are just as many assholes among cyclists as with any other group. And they DO cause problems with walkers, other bikers, autos, roller-bladers and pet owners. > [@](#): > > Is it my belief that only a government website has “real” data? No, why the fuck would you think so? I dismissed your cites because they are anecdotes, single data points giving no relativity, no overall picture, about as useful as a pinhole in a wall for seeing the landscape on the other side. Not all of them. Some were in part anecdotal, but stated policies and laws of the area in which the author lived. Also the NYC site had more than just the little bit you read. Seems like you just read my repeating of the figure of 298, and didn’t bother reading any of the rest of the site. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/184 "2005-07-28T02:55:51Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Furthermore, of those 298 bicycle/pedestrian accidents, a good proportion are going to result from collisions on roads, and/or where it is the pedestrian’s fault. I don’t know what proportion, but some. Much like the information others were shaing earlier about bikers and autos. Lots of times it is the biker’s fault, but because the auto is bigger the bikers is liable to sustain much more damage. Further, if the biker is on the SIDEWALK, which is what both me and **oalu** were talking about, then it is the biker’s fault. > [@](#): > > Still further, don’t twist my words: I never said that cycling/pedestrian accidents were “not real”. I said they were “more perceived than real”. Again, as I stated before, you and I obviously see that phrase in different ways. To me it states, and in a snotty way, that it’s just all in the other person’s head. “more perceived than real” is just a fancy way of saying that in my experience. > [@](#): > > ie I know (and have repeatedly acknowledged) that cyclists are involved in accidents that are sometimes their fault. The point is that the perception of how often that occurs is greater than the reality, and compared to many commonly accepted risks in life, that caused by cyclists doing the wrong thing is vanishingly small. Well, I’d be wrong then, I’ve missed where you’ve made these statements that bikers could perhaps be other than merely innocent victims of a huge conspiracy. I’ve gotten the impression from the post that you responded to originally, and those since that you believe that bikers are first and foremost in the right in most if not all situations, sidewalk riding or no. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/185 "2005-07-28T02:59:33Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What kind of biker rides right beside a car with an occupant who is obviously about to get out? A human one. And “obviously”? I watch very hard for people getting out of cars, but it’s not easy. Reflections off glass, high headrests etc make it tricky and maintaining 100% concentration on that while also watching where you’re going, watching what the traffic is doing etc makes it all too easy to miss someone getting out of a car sometimes. Why would a biker be riding in between cars in a parking lot in the first place? I asked **featherlou** for clarification on what kind of lot she was parked in, but this is strange. Why wouldn’t the biker have been on the trail or roadway instead? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/186 "2005-07-28T04:02:51Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Why would a biker be riding in between cars in a parking lot in the first place? I asked **featherlou** for clarification on what kind of lot she was parked in, but this is strange. > > Why wouldn’t the biker have been on the trail or roadway instead? Hey, **CanvasShoes** , see my post #177 - I clarified the situation that it was on a deserted road, and she came up from behind me and almost certainly saw me park and make ready to get out. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/187 "2005-07-28T04:24:55Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > You didn’t read much of the site did you? That number was down from previous years BECAUSE of the police fining bikers who didn’t comply. You seem to be advocating that bicyclists ride any old place they want to, becaues after all, not many people get hurt by them. Down from not much to even fewer. > [@](#): > > Because your attitude seems to be that they don’t… Give me some quotes that indicate this attitude. Quite simply, you are strawmanning me. You got nuthin’, the only way you can attack my position is by turning it into something it isn’t. > [@](#): > > Well, I’d be wrong then, I’ve missed where you’ve made these statements that bikers could perhaps be other than merely innocent victims of a huge conspiracy. I’ve gotten the impression from the post that you responded to originally, and those since that you believe that bikers are first and foremost in the right in most if not all situations, sidewalk riding or no. I have at no time mentioned that I think the Holocaust was appalling and that Saddam was a bad man. Feel free therefore take it that I am a Holocaust denying Saddam lover. I don’t think that the illegalities that cyclists indulge in are significantly dangerous. I think (above all) that the problem is blown entirely out of proportion and used as a pathetic excuse to justify anti-cyclist prejudice. Nothing, _nothing_ in that statement of position excludes the possibility that I think cyclists sometimes do the wrong thing. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Why would a biker be riding in between cars in a parking lot in the first place? I asked **featherlou** for clarification on what kind of lot she was parked in, but this is strange. Why wouldn’t the biker have been on the trail or roadway instead? **Featherlou’s** original post said nothing at all about a parking lot. It was pretty obvious to me she must have been parked at the side of a road. You repeatedly nonetheless asked why the cyclist was riding “between parked cars in a parking lot”. The fact that she never said she was in a parking lot and never said the cyclist was riding between parked cars didn’t faze you one iota, in your unseemly rush to make unsupported assumptions that you could use to find fault with what the cyclist did. In her subsequent post (just above) she explicitly says she was parked on a road and that she was the only car parked there. And AGAIN you ask why a biker would be riding between cars in a parking lot. If you can’t read, and feel the need to substitute whatever crap suits you in place of what people actually say, and if you can’t cope with subtlety without feeling the need to paint it either black or white then just fuck off and leave debate to people with more intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/188 "2005-07-28T05:12:34Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > Geez. I can’t believe I had to explain this to you. Do you really think government interference with anything improves attendence? Well if ya don’t mind much , I am gonna post that opinion in GQ or Great debates , not sure which, so I can get some wider ansewers on it. It would appear to me that its an irational fear ,rather than what might happen. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/189 "2005-07-28T05:47:54Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > First off, **Declan** , a cyclist will most definitely not just suddenly “appear”. We obey the same laws of physics that all vehicles obey, and any sudden “appearance” is really simply stupidity or negligence on your part. “Honestly, it wasn’t my fault officer! I was just driving along in a wreckless manner where I was going too fast and in a position to be unable to respond to any number of obstacles that could have suddenly popped up in the roadway, from a cyclist, to a child, a stalled out semi-truck, or a cop giving a traffic ticket! He just ‘appeared’, so how can you possibly blame me for running him over?” “Keptin! A Cannondale is uncloaking on the starboard bow!” “Very good Mr. Checkov, Mr. Sulu we will take him with out starboard wing mirrors. 5 degrees starboard and full speed ahead.” “Very good Captain” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/190 "2005-07-28T16:19:04Z")
This whole thread is an interesting look at different bike customs. Biking is currently my primary mode of transport, and while I do get occasional pedestrians in the bike lane/path it is certainly not enough to impede me, I just pass them. Wherever there is no reserved space for bikes, there is usually an unused half or quarter lane next to parked cars that works perfectly (I live in the city). I never take up a whole lane unless I’m turning left or cannot pass the cars on the right, do go through stop signs and, very occasionally, red lights when there’s no other vehicles or pedestrians around. What I don’t do, although many bikers around here do, and what I find very dangerous is: going through stops signs and red lights when there ARE cars who have the right of way already there and weaving between lanes and cars. It’s interesting, I never thought one could characterize Montreal as a place where drivers and bikers got along. Now I see we apparently have it better than most. Oh, and as a pedestrian I was once hit, scraped and bruised by a bike. It does happen. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110/191 "2005-07-28T23:27:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > \In her subsequent post (just above) she explicitly says she was parked on a road and that she was the only car parked there. > \ To clarify this, because the nuances seem to be very important here, I was the only one _driving_ on the road - I was parked at the end of a line of parked cars. Once I pulled over, there was no one else driving in the vicinity except the cyclist. You know, **LaurAnge** , maybe the Calgary driver/cyclist/pedestrian conflict is typical of our city filled with road-rage. I don’t really have a comparison, but it seems like Calgary drivers are very aggressive and hostile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-everyone-that-gets-their-panties-all-in-a-twist-over-cyclists-in-here/313110.md?page=9)