# Okay, Fine, Abortion Again. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2016, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635 "2016-03-11T07:59:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/41 "2016-03-11T17:07:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re right. > > It’s my hope that this view will change. > > I thought that at least some abortion-minded women would literally expect a clump of cells, and would be dissuaded when they saw recognizably human features. Do you mean a simple MRI, or do you mean they should be convinced by a video? Who would be producing it? would it be of their own clump of cells, or perhaps a video of someone else’s of undetermined age accompanied by sad music and dubious “facts”? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/42 "2016-03-11T17:08:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Being pro-abortion is not a libertarian stance, because protecting people from the actions of others (in this case, protecting the unborn child from the mother’s desire to have him or her killed) is a legitimate use of government power to even the staunchest libertarian. And yet, that’s not the stance of the Libertarian Party, which has in its [platform](https://www.lp.org/platform) this statement, “Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.” That sounds pro-choice to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/43 "2016-03-11T17:12:03Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > OK. I fully advocate increased access to effective birth control and that children should have all the necessities after they are born. And? You do? How do you advocate it? Planned Parenthood Centers are(were) a major force for effective birth control, and schools certainly aren’t going to take up the slack. You _say_ you advocate increased access to effective birth control. And? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/44 "2016-03-11T17:12:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is correct. > > Of course, it equally applies to the “between a woman and her doctor,” line. In each case, the argument attempts to assume the truth of the underlying assumption. > > However, as distasteful as it is, it is worth noting that from a policy perspective, the country has spoken on the issue: the courts have determined that while government has an interest in the life of a fetus that will become a human, that interest is not stronger (during the first trimester) than the interest the mother has in controlling her own body. That determination was made in 1972 and generally affirmed, with slight modifications, in subsequent rulings. > > So the task in front of those opposing abortion is convincing the electorate that this view is untenable or wrong. > > As it now stands, abortion is protected, and **BobLibDem** ’s “slug” analogy is the correct one. The country has not spoken. The Supreme Court has spoken. The Supreme Court does not represent the country nor should it. The OP mentioned Texas as a place that is trying to shut down abortion clinics. The people of Texas have spoken through their elected representatives and lawyers are trying to get the unelected judges on the Supreme Court to overrule the people just as they did in Roe vs Wade. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/45 "2016-03-11T17:17:01Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > And you’re saying this to support the argument that the “rights” of a clump of cells the size of my thumb trumps the rights of a fully grown woman? > > :smack: Why does size enter into it? Do midgets have fewer rights than NBA players? It is just as illegal to murder a premature baby the size of a large sandwich as it is to murder a five hundred pound biggest loser contestant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/46 "2016-03-11T17:21:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Why does size enter into it? Do midgets have fewer rights than NBA players? > It is just as illegal to murder a premature baby the size of a large sandwich as it is to murder a five hundred pound biggest loser contestant. that’s right-once it’s born. But when is it _legally_ a _person_? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/47 "2016-03-11T17:23:15Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The country has not spoken. The Supreme Court has spoken. The Supreme Court does not represent the country nor should it. The OP mentioned Texas as a place that is trying to shut down abortion clinics. The people of Texas have spoken through their elected representatives and lawyers are trying to get the unelected judges on the Supreme Court to overrule the people just as they did in Roe vs Wade. Regulating health clinics that offer abortion out of existence, with no interest in women’s health, which is what the Texas law is attempting to do, doesn’t sound Constitutional to me, and hopefully the Supreme Court will reject it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/48 "2016-03-11T17:29:52Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > This is one of those issues in which I have one foot on the left side of the political spectrum and the other on the right side. > > For the first 3 to 4 months I have no issue with the woman making the decision what is best for her. For the last 3 months I am quite troubled by late term abortions. Those months in between I just don’t know. Almost everyone believes that a newborn child has a right not to be murdered. No one would hold a funeral for a zygote that failed to implant. As you say the question of abortion is when the child acquires the right not to be murdered. I would agree with you that a child who is only 3 to 4 months old has not acquired the right, but the operative word is probably. If we are wrong and the 3 to 4 month old is a baby then allowing abortion at that time is condemning millions of them to death. An analogy would be is it okay to play Russian Roulette with a gun that fires poison instead of bullet into a uterus with a full term baby in it. I would not be comfortable with a one in six chance of killing the baby. What about if the gun had 10 chambers instead of 6? I think it would still be wrong if the gun had 100 chambers. Since the actual age when a fetus acquires the right not to be murdered is unknown and unknowable then the only moral choice is to find the age where a community has a consensus that the fetus acquires that right and then move legal line for abortion a couple of weeks before that line. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/49 "2016-03-11T17:31:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > that’s right-once it’s born. But when is it _legally_ a _person_? Whenever the law says it is. The question is what should the law say? Otherwise it is just a circular argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/50 "2016-03-11T17:33:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you mean a simple MRI, or do you mean they should be convinced by a video? Who would be producing it? would it be of their own clump of cells, or perhaps a video of someone else’s of undetermined age accompanied by sad music and dubious “facts”? The first question you asked was answered in an earlier post. The second question is also answered by that post. The third and fourth, likewise. In short: every single question you raise here is answered by the presence of a ten-letter word in the post which introduced the subject. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/51 "2016-03-11T17:34:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Regulating health clinics that offer abortion out of existence, with no interest in women’s health, which is what the Texas law is attempting to do, doesn’t sound Constitutional to me, and hopefully the Supreme Court will reject it. I have read the Constitution and I have not found anything about abortion in it. In questions where the Constitution is silent the people, through their electing representatives get to decide whether abortion clinics get to operate in their region. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/52 "2016-03-11T17:34:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You do? How do you advocate it? Planned Parenthood Centers are(were) a major force for effective birth control, and schools certainly aren’t going to take up the slack. You _say_ you advocate increased access to effective birth control. > And? And I do. My wife and I donate to Planned Parenthood, even though I disagree with their abortion stances. It’s vitally important for people, especially teenagers, to have access to birth control and sex education, and I support both in our public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/53 "2016-03-11T17:47:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The country has not spoken. The Supreme Court has spoken. The Supreme Court does not represent the country nor should it. The OP mentioned Texas as a place that is trying to shut down abortion clinics. The people of Texas have spoken through their elected representatives and lawyers are trying to get the unelected judges on the Supreme Court to overrule the people just as they did in Roe vs Wade. > [@puddleglum](#): > > I have read the Constitution and I have not found anything about abortion in it. In questions where the Constitution is silent the people, through their electing representatives get to decide whether abortion clinics get to operate in their region. So if you’ve read the Constitution, you understand that the justices are not elected and you understand that, whether or not you feel they represent the country, their decisions are binding upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/54 "2016-03-11T17:49:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The first question you asked was answered in an earlier post. > > The second question is also answered by that post. > > The third and fourth, likewise. > > In short: every single question you raise here is answered by the presence of a ten-letter word in the post which introduced the subject. As far as answers in this thread are concerned, I _did_ find this earlier post from you on the subject: > [@Bricker](#): > > I supported the ultrasound requirement, under the theory that it would cause women to reconsider after gaining more accurate information – which is a legitimate government goal. However, after seeing data on the actual experience – delay, but statistically insignificant changes in rates – I withdrew my support, concluding that it’s a pretext to hinder, not a good way to provide information. > > I fervently wish this were not so, but it is. The courts have spoken: it’s a right. The way to change this via persuasion and ultimately constitutional amendment. So some might see why I am a trifle unclear as to your exact position on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/55 "2016-03-11T17:52:39Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > No I think you’re taking the actions and beliefs of some pro-life people and ascribing them to all pro-life people. It’s a ton easier to do than deal with the issue, but I find it just drags down these threads until there is no point going on. Given that I specified “the GOP” rather than “pro-life people” and even caveated it with “by and large”, I find that to be an entirely unfair assessment of what I actually said. Perhaps you may want to reconsider who is generalizing about whom in order to avoid dealing with the actual issue. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/56 "2016-03-11T17:57:07Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > This is one of those issues in which I have one foot on the left side of the political spectrum and the other on the right side. > > For the first 3 to 4 months I have no issue with the woman making the decision what is best for her. For the last 3 months I am quite troubled by late term abortions. Those months in between I just don’t know. Rule of thumb - if it can’t survive outside the womb, it isn’t alive yet. It is a parasite supported by the woman’s circulatory system using the placenta as an interface. Until it can survive outside as far as I am concerned do what your choice is. [and despite my abortion for a kid that trying to remain pregnant would have killed me and me being personally against abortion for myself as birth control, unless the woman has CHOICE, it is being forced to be a walking womb and dehumanizing.You don’t like abortion? Don’t have one.] ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/57 "2016-03-11T18:10:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Pretty much bullshit, son. You oppose abortion, and that’s fine. That’s your opinion. But don’t try to claim that “Between a woman and her doctor” is “appeal to authority.” That’s a load. Instead, it’s an invocation of the right to privacy, and of doctor-patient privilege, as enshrined in law. You replied to that guy, that was your first mistake. The second was assuming he has any reason between what he says and his unquestioned support of conservative beliefs. He will say anything, do anything, in support of his ideology. It doesn’t matter if he’s logically wrong, he will claim he’s right then ignore you ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/58 "2016-03-11T18:13:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Perhaps you may want to reconsider who is generalizing about whom in order to avoid dealing with the actual issue. Great. Go about your GOP bashing. with my blessing. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/59 "2016-03-11T18:40:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As far as answers in this thread are concerned, I _did_ find this earlier post from you on the subject: > > So some might see why I am a trifle unclear as to your exact position on the subject. Jesus, man! Why are you browbeating a guy who already said he changed his mind about supporting the ultrasound requirement? He used to support it, and then facts surrounding it changed his mind. You should be happy that as much as he is against abortion, he recognizes the legitimacy of the laws in place that allow it, and even rejects new laws that, while hindering abortions, go against the laws already in place. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635/60 "2016-03-11T19:03:07Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > > [@Gedd](#): > > > > And the anti-abortion argument is blind to the fact that you not wanting an abortion doesn’t mean you get to force everyone else not to have one. > > Society does this all the time. Nobody says “YOU don’t have to steal, but you can’t force me to not steal” or “YOU may believe robbery is wrong so you don’t have to do it, but that doesn’t mean you can’t force me not to rob.” Considering abortion is legal I think this is a poor analogy. Try “YOU don’t have to drink, but you can’t force me not to drink” or “YOU may believe homosexuality is wrong, but you can’t force me not to be gay.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-abortion-again/748635.md?page=4)