# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/201 "2015-11-02T14:44:08Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What is the evil inherent in the governments of > the senegal? > the mali > the indonesia > the malaysia > the turkey > the tunisia > the niger > the azerbaijan > the albania > > Please be specific. you have said every single one Are you from Los Angeles or something? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/202 "2015-11-02T14:46:23Z")
the Los Angeles, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/203 "2015-11-02T14:53:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > the Los Angeles, I believe. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/204 "2015-11-02T14:54:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You expressed negative reaction to the percentage of people who embrace the religion in the land where they live. That is a pretty clear case of opposing democratic action. Even if the current government in many of those places is authoritarian, in the manner of religion, at least, the people support it. Opposing that is opposing democracy. **tomndebb** , do you agree with those who expressed the following > [@](#): > > Two-thirds of white evangelical Protestants (66%) now express support for having churches speak out on social and political issues, up from 56% in 2010. > > [ā€¦] > > Most white evangelical Protestants (68%) say there has been too little expression of religious faith and prayer by political leaders. > > [ā€¦] > > Roughly six-in-ten Americans (59%) say it is important for members of Congress to have strong religious beliefs, a number largely unchanged since the 2010 midterm cycle. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans and those who lean toward the Republican Party say that members of Congress should have strong religious beliefs (72%). > > [ā€¦] > > Most people who identify with a religion, ranging from 83% of white evangelicals to 59% of white Catholics, say it is important for members of Congress to have strong religious beliefs. or do you oppose democracy? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/205 "2015-11-02T16:12:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **tomndebb** , do you agree with those who expressed the following > or do you oppose democracy? > > Regards, > Shodan Do you think that the wishes of those people, if expressed at the ballot box, should be discounted and overridden , Shodan? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/206 "2015-11-02T17:10:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Feel absolutely free to compare. Iā€™ll gladly compare them with other countries in the region with a similar economic profile. Oh, hey, surprise! Liberia and the Philippines and Armenia and Cyprus arenā€™t amazing paradises of freedom. Whoā€™d have imagined? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/207 "2015-11-02T17:17:58Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Iā€™m well aware that you donā€™t like me, since youā€™ve given me warnings in forums that you donā€™t even moderate. But this is pretty weak. Iā€™ve used exactly this [language](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18584072&postcount=100) [for months](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18640993&postcount=42) [without](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18465966&postcount=3) [warning](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18702649&postcount=28)ā€¦ In fact there have been several warnings. But thanks for the reminder. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/208 "2015-11-02T17:27:57Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Do you think that the wishes of those people, if expressed at the ballot box, should be discounted and overridden , Shodan? No, I donā€™t. But wanting your elected representatives to be people of faith is rather different from supporting the death penalty for apostasy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/209 "2015-11-02T17:28:51Z")
As we consider Tentative Solutions to the Muslim Problem, there are many factors that need to be resolved, before we can make even the most modest proposal. For instance, at what age does a child become irreversibly indoctrinated into the evil and violence of Islam? By necessity, this will be a somewhat arbitrary distinction, as a child of three who has been thoroughly indoctrinated might be unsalvageable, but one who had a ā€œmoderateā€ upbringing may not be. Or should it be four, or five? Let it be noted that previous applications of this sort of Solution made no distinctions at all, children simply lumped in with their elders. While this reflects the methodical simplicity and efficiency that they are widely known for, our modern and enlightened attitudes might not permit such a direct and obvious method. Or perhaps take a leaf from their own history? Incorporate and absorb Islamic children into a paramilitary force that will raise them for useful and suitable roles as warriors. Christian soldiers, or perhaps Jesussaries? Let it be noted that this is largely an option for male children, other options for female children are obvious, but may well offend our delicate moral sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/210 "2015-11-02T18:06:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I donā€™t. But wanting your elected representatives to be people of faith is rather different from supporting the death penalty for apostasy. True. But **Robert163** wasnā€™t talking about Muslims who favor the death penalty for apostasy, he was aghast at the very idea that Muslims think favorably about their religionā€™s influence on their countriesā€™ politics (according to him, for example, 95% of Indonesians are happy with the influence of Islam on Indonesiaā€™s politics, but the number of Indonesians who say they favor the death penalty for apostasy is only 18% even among those who want to see _shariā€™ah_ made the the law of the land). Meaning that what **Robert163** thinks is so damning for Islam is the exact same thing that most Christians in the US also say they want. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/211 "2015-11-02T19:11:56Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > True. But **Robert163** wasnā€™t talking about Muslims who favor the death penalty for apostasy, he was aghast at the very idea that Muslims think favorably about their religionā€™s influence on their countriesā€™ politics (according to him, for example, 95% of Indonesians are happy with the influence of Islam on Indonesiaā€™s politics, but the number of Indonesians who say they favor the death penalty for apostasy is only 18% even among those who want to see _shariā€™ah_ made the the law of the land). > > Meaning that what **Robert163** thinks is so damning for Islam is the exact same thing that most Christians in the US also say they want. Thatā€™s a fair point, but there are a number of other Muslim countries where a majority are \*\*not \*\*saying the exact same thing that most Christians in the US say - > [@](#): > > In fact, according to the 2013 Pew Research Center report, 88 percent of Muslims in Egypt and 62 percent of Muslims in Pakistan favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion. This is also the majority view among Muslims in Malaysia, Jordan and the Palestinian territories [Cite.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/) **Robert163** can speak for himself, but I expect that he is more aghast at the ideas expressed in the OP. But I see your point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/212 "2015-11-02T19:16:03Z")
In other words so caught up in the algorithm of ideological gotcha cycles, the Regards has gotchaed **Tomndeb** about a subject that he was not responding to and was not a point made by the person **tomndeb** responded to, but importance is the ideological gotcha algorithmic operationā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/213 "2015-11-02T19:24:35Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Spare us your unlearned assertions. There is no single [definition of hidjab](https://www.google.com/search?q=iranian+hijab+style&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=785&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI3v-w-LrxyAIVQYcaCh1YVwqK) No there is not, but there is a [consensus](http://www.hajjguides.com/proper-hijab-in-islam.html): > [@](#): > > There exists difference of opinion amongst the scholars and Islamic Jurists if women allowed showing her face or not. Some scholars say the women should be fully covered. However, **majority of scholars like Hanafi, Maliki, hunbali says everything should be covered except hands and the face.** And they quote the hadith on the authority of Asmaā€™ bint ā€˜Umays > [@](#): > > and [the styles](https://www.google.com/search?q=iranian+hijab+style&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=785&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI3v-w-LrxyAIVQYcaCh1YVwqK#tbm=isch&q=lebanese+hijab+style) of how it is worn are not defined by non muslim bigots and hate mongerersā€¦ No it is not, it is defined by Muslim hatemongers using the misogyny inherent in Islam. > [@](#): > > the promoters of bigotted hatred do not decide for me what is oppressive or not. the entire discourse around the prophet and the faux concern over hidjab is nothing more than pretexts for name calling and acting out by the promoters of hatred. I know that, for those of you raised to unquestionably regard Islam as a perfect religion, it is near impossible to see any criticism of Islamic orthodoxy as having arisen from a source other than ignorance or bigotry and hatred. However, there are many other reasons to be skeptical of the claims that the requirement or expectation that women cover themselves in the manner that exists in Muslim communities is not discriminatory and harmful. Some of those reasons have been elaborated on [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/3hwpt9/why_i_believe_the_hijab_is_sexist_discriminatory/), by a Muslim woman. Rather than spit out such hateful garbage concerning your presumptions about the motivations behind the criticisms, maybe try to address the concerns themselves. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/214 "2015-11-02T19:25:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thatā€™s a fair point, but there are a number of other Muslim countries where a majority are \*\*not \*\*saying the exact same thing that most Christians in the US say - > [Cite.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/) Which is a serious problem. But looking at the rest of the survey shows that not even high percentages of Muslims who say they favor making _shariā€™ah_ the law of the land correlates to supporting the death penalty for apostasy in a lot of places, making the causal connection between wanting _shariā€™ah_ and wanting death for apostates false, to say nothing of the even falser causal connection between merely wanting Islam to have an influence in politics and wanting death for apostates. > [@](#): > > **Robert163** can speak for himself, but I expect that he is more aghast at the ideas expressed in the OP. If he was, then he wouldnā€™t have included Indonesia. Robert163, who believes that ā€œIslam=badā€, merely looked for countries with high numbers of Muslims who think that the role Islam plays in the politics of their country to be a good thing, and assumed that it proved his pre-determined conclusion (more pro-Islam people=more bad, QED!). And I was pointing out the problems with that assumption of his. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/215 "2015-11-02T19:28:31Z")
For people who think we should ā€œdo somethingā€ about Islam, I propose that our modern-day, PC, liberal policies ARE doing something. It is making more than 1 billion Muslims not want to kill us. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/216 "2015-11-02T19:45:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No there is not, but there is a [consensus](http://www.hajjguides.com/proper-hijab-in-islam.html) No, in fact you give me a websiteā€¦ woooah. I am so impressed you googled around to one of the many websites asserting the proper way to do something. Why that Verily shows Consensusā€¦ There is no ā€œconsensusā€ as the actual images of actual hidjabs in the real world. But it is typical of the othering hate mongerers to promote such ideas in their attempt to promote the intracommunal hatreds and promote their underlying agendas. > [@](#): > > I know that, for those of you raised to unquestionably regard Islam as a perfect religion, This is a typical straw man of yours. of course you do not know anything of how I was raised (in fact secular and quite indifferent to the religion). However, interacting with the hate mongers and the bigots has taught me an appreciation of the importance of refutation of the bile and the lies and the distortions promoted by the bigotted hate mongerers, as their discourse replicates again and again the same pattern of discourse, the same tropes as led to the Final solutionā€¦ Indeed the more I see of your type of discourse and the more I see of the robertnumbers discourse, the more I feel sympathy for the very religious and the burden they bear and the less sympathetic I feel to criticisms that I see more and more as mere excuses to cover bigotries. I have also learned an appreciation for the desire of the jews for the Israel, and their distrust of the christian european powers since we see the transfer of the same kind of discourse to a new minority religion. The intolerance and the hatred is in the same structure. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/217 "2015-11-02T19:46:11Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No there is not, but there is a [consensus](http://www.hajjguides.com/proper-hijab-in-islam.html): And, as Ramiraā€™s link shows, what that actually encompasses varies pretty widely. > [@](#): > > No it is not, it is defined by Muslim hatemongers using the misogyny inherent in Islam. I like how youā€™re arguing with an actual Muslima showing you images of other actual Muslimas wearing a wide array of different _hijab_s that theyā€™re all wrong about _hijab_ not having any agreed-upon single definition. > [@](#): > > Some of those reasons have been elaborated on [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/3hwpt9/why_i_believe_the_hijab_is_sexist_discriminatory/), by a Muslim woman. > > Rather than spit out such hateful garbage concerning your presumptions about the motivations behind the criticisms, maybe try to address the concerns themselves. And if you _donā€™t_ want to read an anonymous statement posted on Reddit, I recommend reading [this (free) book](http://www.wluml.org/node/5756) published by Women Living Under Muslim Laws. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/218 "2015-11-02T19:52:53Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > As long as we are freeing women from hijab, can we free us from having to wear a shirt when itā€™s hot out? It is being worked on, and progress is being made. [1880ā€™s swimwear.](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b2/01/f3/b201f3c4d54c0c4825e59561f6a6d106.jpg) [Beach today](https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2499/4113789774_54f750d6b3.jpg). > [@](#): > > Also, pantyhose? Have you ever heard of anything as stupid as pantyhose? My legs are unprofessional, so when I go to a job interview I have to put fake legs over my real legs. Bizarre. Ha ha. Agreed. Seriously, all gender specific statutes regarding dress should be ruled as unconstitutionally discriminatory, like yesterday. I had the pleasure of going on a bicycle ride with a Muslim woman the first time she ever wore shorts in public. The joy she expressed was astounding (once we were on the trail in the woods, and away from even the remote possibility that someone from her community would see her, before then the shame and fear was overwhelming to her). The freedom to enjoy the pleasurable feeling of wind on oneā€™s legs is something that most of us take for granted, and her level appreciation of this experience astounded me, and is something I will never forget. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/219 "2015-11-02T19:53:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > For people who think we should ā€œdo somethingā€ about Islam, I propose that our modern-day, PC, liberal policies ARE doing something. It is making more than 1 billion Muslims not want to kill us. Who, specifically, is implementing these policies? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/220 "2015-11-02T19:55:01Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > And, as Ramiraā€™s link shows, what that actually encompasses varies pretty widely. > > I like how youā€™re arguing with an actual Muslima showing you images of other actual Muslimas wearing a wide array of different _hijab_s that theyā€™re all wrong about _hijab_ not having any agreed-upon single definition. > > And if you _donā€™t_ want to read an anonymous statement posted on Reddit, I recommend reading [this (free) book](http://www.wluml.org/node/5756) published by Women Living Under Muslim Laws. And why is it, do you think, that a Muslim woman critical of hijab might feel less comfortable publicly expressing her opinion than those supporting the tradition? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=12)