# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/241 "2015-11-02T22:48:13Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > It is not that Islam was tolerant, it was that the society was relatively tolerant despite what Islam says. Sounds like you agree that Islam contains room for tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/242 "2015-11-02T23:01:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its a fact Obama’s been more liberal with ME countries and Muslims, from agreeing to meet with Iran and working with the former “Axis of Evil” country on a nuclear deal to not thinking we can just go in and blow everyone up in Syria and take over like Bush did with Iraq. Most Iranians have always had a favorable view of Americans, so we weren’t really in danger of them wanting to kill us. What evidence do you have that fewer Muslims want to kill us today than did, say 5 years ago? Yes, I agree that Obama’s policies are a lot better than Bush’s, but I doubt they’ve made much difference at all in terms of Muslims wanting to kill us. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/243 "2015-11-02T23:08:12Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Sounds like you agree that Islam contains room for tolerance. The history of Islamic nation[s makes this obvious](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/islamic-history-is-full-of-free-thinkers-but-recent-attempts-to-suppress-critical-thought-are-9993777.html). At the same time, Islam, as it is believed, professed, and practiced today, presents major obstacles to progress towards tolerant societies. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/244 "2015-11-02T23:47:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Continue to remind everyone that Mohammed was a murderer, a thief, a slaver, and a war mongering psychopath. Point out that he was Allahs direct representative on earth, that he explicitly stated gods will at gods command. Therefor the Muslim god too is a murdering psychopath who supports slavery and the oppression of women. > > Remind them of this, everytime someone, anyone, says that Islam is a religion of peace. If you say all this while stipulating that Mohammed’s “Allah” is real, you concede that Islamic State are utterly “correct” to be murdering psychos for Allah. I think you need to tweak your approach. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/245 "2015-11-03T01:30:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, in all honesty… if some of the defenders would just admit, yes, rape murder and theft _are_ evil and Mohammed did all of them and that was wrong… instead of all of their convoluted defense mechanisms… then, well then, the (SDMB) conversation would go A LOT different and people like **me** and **Hank Beecher** wouldn’t have to spend so much time “spewing our ignornat hatred”… we could all just move on to, how do you fix the situaiton. The thread already uses that claim as its premise. You should be able to simply assume your claim and propose a solution based on it rather than repeatedly ignoring instructions to stop trying to argue the point so that you can avoid actually posting to the topic, thus earning you one more Warning. Your solution, that we simply harp on what you believe is wrong, has already been shown to be ineffective–a point to which you have failed to reply. There are other threads in which you can make your point. In this one, you are simply digging yourself deeper into trouble by refusing to actually address the OP. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/246 "2015-11-03T01:39:37Z")
**Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it?** I feel as though I have posted this before and scanned prior postes to find it and came up empty. But if I have, moderators you are welcome to delete this post [1] _Is Islam violent-_? NO more so than Judaism or Christianity [2] _Is Islam evil-_? NO more so than Judaism or Christianity [3] _What do you want us to DO about it-_? Nada, zilch, nothing, just try to Love the Stranger as Thyself and you will be one happy camper ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/247 "2015-11-03T01:40:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > if some of the defenders would just admit, yes, rape murder and theft _are_ evil and Mohammed did all of them and that was wrong. Tom, he _is proposing a solution, and you are_ abusing your authority in order to silence criticism of Mohammed and limit discussion of his brutal atrocities. His solution is that defenders admit that rape, theft, and murder are wrong, and to admit that Mohammed did all of those things. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/248 "2015-11-03T01:47:59Z")
BTW None of the three religions are Evil ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/249 "2015-11-03T01:50:08Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > silence criticism of Mohammed and limit discussion of his brutal atrocities. Please proved some examples of these brutal atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/250 "2015-11-03T01:52:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **tomndebb** , do you agree with those who expressed the following > or do you oppose democracy? Is there a point to this silliness? I have no problem with religious groups speaking out on social issues. I support many of them. If I disagree with a position that a religious group takes on a social issue, I will argue against their position, but I would never suggest that they do not have the right or should not have the right to express themselves. I disagree that there has been too little religious expression by political leaders, but anyone running for office should have the right to express themselves on any topic they wish. I have seen no evidence that the “strength” of religious belief plays any role in the competence of a political leader. I find claims that they “should” have strong religious beliefs to be little more than a desire by some that the leader have the same religious belief as the poll respondent. I doubt that the poll respondents who champion Governor Huckabee were all that happy with the strong religious beliefs of Representative Drinan . Not a big deal. We still have voters making decisions based on ethnicity or gender, (or the effectiveness of attack ads), so throwing in religion is hardly a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/251 "2015-11-03T01:56:37Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > silence criticism of Mohammed and limit discussion of his brutal atrocities. (Exo 12:27 KJV) \* That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD’S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped. \* (Exo 12:28 KJV) \ ***And the children of Israel** went away, and **did as the LORD had commanded** Moses and Aaron, so did they. \* (Exo 12:29 KJV) \* And it came to pass, that **at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle**. \* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/252 "2015-11-03T02:04:48Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Tom, he _is proposing a solution, and you are_ abusing your authority in order to silence criticism of Mohammed and limit discussion of his brutal atrocities. > > His solution is that defenders admit that rape, theft, and murder are wrong, and to admit that Mohammed did all of those things. That is a nonsense claim that I refuted, and neither you nor he have been able to respond to its obvious failure. To whom are we supposed to announce these claims of evil? People in Europe and North America to encourage pogroms and persecution against their Muslim neighbors whose attitudes already closely match the attitudes of the Christians, secularists, and Jews near whom they live? The people of majority Muslim countries who will dismiss those claims as one more sign that the West simply hates them and wants to oppress them by spreading calumny against them and their beliefs? The point was to find a way to reduce violence. His “plan” would only stir up more violence. Repeating the claim in this thread fails to address the flaw in his proposal and is simply an attempt to proclaim his beliefs in the wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/253 "2015-11-03T02:07:20Z")
> [@tooldtocare](#): > > Please proved some examples of these brutal atrocities. No! The point of this thread is to presume such accusations are true and to propose ways to deal with there results in the current world. We will not get into a discussion of the accuracy of the claims and you will be Warned if you persist in this attempt at a hijack. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/254 "2015-11-03T02:11:03Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > True. But **Robert163** wasn’t talking about Muslims who favor the death penalty for apostasy, he was aghast at the very idea that Muslims think favorably about their religion’s influence on their countries’ politics (according to him, for example, 95% of Indonesians are happy with the influence of Islam on Indonesia’s politics, but the number of Indonesians who say they favor the death penalty for apostasy is only 18% even among those who want to see _shari’ah_ made the the law of the land). > > Meaning that what **Robert163** thinks is so damning for Islam is the exact same thing that most Christians in the US also say they want. People in the US want prosecution for blasphemy? What penalty do you think they’ll settle for for Piss Christ? Because the artist got a nice check for it and a traveling road show of his work. Either we have a different definition for blasphemy or you’re completely full of baloney. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/255 "2015-11-03T02:19:03Z")
I see frequent references to polls showing support for the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy. What I do not see are lots of laws in the countries where majorities “support” such laws. In the few countries where such laws are on the books, such laws are rarely enforced, and then, nearly always by some clown out in the boondocks who has a personal grudge against the person accused. Claiming that so many people “favor” laws that they have the power to institute and enforce, but which they do not, strongly suggests that the polls are not actually demonstrating much beyond a notion that the respondents are giving the pollsters what the respondents think they want to hear while not actually believing their own answers. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/256 "2015-11-03T02:27:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I see frequent references to polls showing support for the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy. What I do not see are lots of laws in the countries where majorities “support” such laws. In the few countries where such laws are on the books, such laws are rarely enforced, and then, nearly always by some clown out in the boondocks who has a personal grudge against the person accused. > > Claiming that so many people “favor” laws that they have the power to institute and enforce, but which they do not, strongly suggests that the polls are not actually demonstrating much beyond a notion that the respondents are giving the pollsters what the respondents think they want to hear while not actually believing their own answers. So you are free to continue this campaign of yours to reform the image of Islam, while using your powers of moderation to suppress the evidence that you are wrong… ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/257 "2015-11-03T02:31:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > People in the US want prosecution for blasphemy? A lot do, yes. People already are getting prosecuted for blasphemy in such Muslim countries as Greece. > [@](#): > > Either we have a different definition for blasphemy or you’re completely full of baloney. Or Robert163’s post wasn’t about support for blasphemy, but merely about the percentage of Muslims who think it’s a good thing that Islam has an influence on the politics of their countries. And in that regard, there’s not really a whole lot of difference between what most Americans think about religion’s role in politics and what Muslims in these countries think about religion’s role in politics. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/258 "2015-11-03T02:36:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I see frequent references to polls showing support for the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy. What I do not see are lots of laws in the countries where majorities “support” such laws. In the few countries where such laws are on the books, such laws are rarely enforced, and then, nearly always by some clown out in the boondocks who has a personal grudge against the person accused. > > Claiming that so many people “favor” laws that they have the power to institute and enforce, but which they do not, strongly suggests that the polls are not actually demonstrating much beyond a notion that the respondents are giving the pollsters what the respondents think they want to hear while not actually believing their own answers. Are you aware that the governor of the Punjab in Pakistan was murdered for even hinting that the blasphemy law be changed? Are you aware that his murderer is lauded as a hero [by many who call for his release](http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/01/05/city/lahore/clerics-demand-release-of-qadri/)? Are you aware that entire neighborhoods of [Christians have been destroyed after the mere mention that one of the inhabitants committed blasphemy](http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/christian-neighborhood-attacked-after-blasphemy-allegation/)? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/259 "2015-11-03T02:58:18Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Are you aware that the governor of the Punjab in Pakistan was murdered for even hinting that the blasphemy law be changed? Are you aware that his murderer is lauded as a hero [by many who call for his release](http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/01/05/city/lahore/clerics-demand-release-of-qadri/)? Which, as I pointed out before, does not include the architect of Pakistan’s blasphemy law, who railed against the murderer and his actions. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/260 "2015-11-03T03:01:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No! The point of this thread is to presume such accusations are true and.,.,.,.,., My father once told me, to “presume” is to make an ass out of you and me lol. I am sure my comment is enough to ban me :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=14)