# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/261 "2015-11-03T03:12:59Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > . . . His solution is that defenders admit that rape, theft, and murder are wrong, and to admit that Mohammed did all of those things. Islamic law already says that rape and murder are wrong. This would change nothing in the Islamic world. What is your solution to the problem (which is stipulated to by the premise of the thread?) The best I can see is constructive engagement with Islamic moderates, and a low-scale cultural offensive, rewarding non-violent regimes. This would also work best if we stop demonizing the entire religion, and focus on “othering” only the extremists. Economic leverage against extremist regimes is also a good tactic (which we’re currently using. Funny, that.) ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/262 "2015-11-03T03:16:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > _The best I can see is constructive engagement with Islamic moderates, and a low-scale cultural offensive, rewarding non-violent regimes. This would also work best if we stop demonizing the entire religion, and focus on “othering” only the extremists. Economic leverage against extremist regimes is also a good tactic (which we’re currently using. Funny, that.)_ I second that motion 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/263 "2015-11-03T03:21:07Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > So you are free to continue this campaign of yours to reform the image of Islam, while using your powers of moderation to suppress the evidence that you are wrong… This makes no sense. The premise of the thread is that you and Robert123 are correct. Repeating your claims about how correct you are does nothing to address the question of the OP. In this thread, I have no campaign to “reform the image of Islam.” I simply want people who believe it needs to be reformed to produce a serious proposal for how to do this. Hurling insults at people simply fails for reasons i have pointed out and for which neither of you have provided any genuine challenge. **Robert123** finally began making the claim that insults had worked against Fundamentalist Christianity–while ignoring the fact that it has steadily grown in power in the U.S. in the last 40 years, and without providing evidence for how it has been ridiculed–and has made no effort to show how his great plan would actually be accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/264 "2015-11-03T03:24:00Z")
> [@tooldtocare](#): > > My father once told me, to “presume” is to make an ass out of you and me lol. > > I am sure my comment is enough to ban me :smack: No. We will simply point at you and laugh. The adage is “to assume makes an ass of u and me.” (Note the spelling.) ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/265 "2015-11-03T03:30:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What is your solution to the problem (which is stipulated to by the premise of the thread?) On a one on one bases do not demonize them. Embrace them as your own and treat them as a friend until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/266 "2015-11-03T03:32:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > .,.,.The adage is “to assume makes an ass of u and me.” (Note the spelling.) Thanks for the heads up, my bad ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/267 "2015-11-03T03:34:28Z")
I am gone, you all can get back to doing whatever ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/268 "2015-11-03T03:39:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. We will simply point at you and laugh. The adage is “to assume makes an ass of u and me.” (Note the spelling.) I will never hear this expression the same way again. I presume you’ll vote for me in November 2016, so we can share the Oval Office. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/269 "2015-11-03T04:32:40Z")
> [@tooldtocare](#): > > On a one on one bases do not demonize them. Embrace them as your own and treat them as a friend until proven otherwise. Yes! Exactly the same way I treat anybody! If I meet a guy who turns out to be Jewish…or Catholic…or Latter Day Saints…or Atheist… To begin with, I don’t bring up the subject of religion; I prefer to wait until someone else does. If he’s aggressive about it, I pretty much walk away. But that’s true of just about anyone. I had a co-worker who was all gaga about chemtrails. After a while, I started making excuses not to chat with him any longer. He wasn’t any fun to talk with! ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/270 "2015-11-03T05:38:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That is a nonsense claim that I refuted, and neither you nor he have been able to respond to its obvious failure. You haven’t refuted anything Tom, you have refused to acknowledge basic facts of history and the basic truth about Islamic orthodoxy, preferring instead to use your power as a moderator to limit their inclusion in the discussion. > [@](#): > > To whom are we supposed to announce these claims of evil? I have acknowledged that there are no easy solutions. I acknowledge that open criticism of Islamic scripture and traditions is a minefield which could have unintended consequences, driving people deeper into the insular communities than spawn the extremists. You have failed to grasp that your method, pretending that Islamic scripture and tradition doesn’t contain these brutalities, is _also_ a minefield. Also, the whole idea of characterizing the position of those critical of Islam as thinking that is is simplistically “evil” poisons the well. Violent, yes. Evil? This isn’t star wars. > [@](#): > > People in Europe and North America to encourage pogroms and persecution against their Muslim neighbors whose attitudes already closely match the attitudes of the Christians, secularists, and Jews near whom they live? That is a valid concern, but refusing to acknowledge the realities about Islamic scripture and traditions, refusing to acknowledge that the man Muslims are taught to emulate as the model of perfect behavior was a slave owning rapist, plays right into the hands of the Islamists who marginalize and dominate and persecute the free thinkers who emerge from their communities. There are no potent solutions without major downsides, to realize this and still act is simply the adult thing to do, rather than apologize and dither and play the part of the good tolerant boy fending off the evil bigots. > [@](#): > > The people of majority Muslim countries who will dismiss those claims as one more sign that the West simply hates them and wants to oppress them by spreading calumny against them and their beliefs? People in Muslim countries are not monolithic Tom. The same Iraq that gives us ISIS gives us [Faisal Saeed Al Mutar](http://www.faisalalmutar.com/). The same Pakistan that gives us the Taliban gives us Kunwar Khuldune and Pervez Hoodbhoy. ISIS and the Taliban are going to dismiss what we say, _no matter what it is_. Those of us who are rational, progressive, and critical of orthodoxy, owe it to those brave souls in and from these nations and communities to recognize their voices and ally with them, rather than marginalize them and side with the extremists by adding to the accusations that their critiques are the products of hatred and bigotry. > [@](#): > > The point was to find a way to reduce violence. His “plan” would only stir up more violence. Repeating the claim in this thread fails to address the flaw in his proposal and is simply an attempt to proclaim his beliefs in the wrong thread. No it is not. It might not be a good solution, but it is a proposed solution. Your censorship is an attempt to limit criticism of Islam and it’s prophet because you recognize the language as inflammatory. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/271 "2015-11-03T06:06:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Islamic law already says that rape and murder are wrong. Only if you consider that people being killed for witchcraft, or being gay, or for leaving Islam are not murdered. And as for rape, [Mohammed claimed revelations which allowed sex with war captives](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery#Sexual_intercourse), and [married and had sex with a nine year old girl when he was in his fifties](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16204133&postcount=250), so not so much. It shouldn’t surprise anyone when similar atrocities regularly occur among some of those who strive to emulate his behavior. > [@](#): > > What is your solution to the problem (which is stipulated to by the premise of the thread?) I mentioned my thoughts on what a solution might look like in[post #80.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18823097&postcount=80) But it is a monumental problem, and I don’t have any better single answer to it than I do to how we are going to colonize Mars or stop desertification or any other giant problem. > [@](#): > > The best I can see is constructive engagement with Islamic moderates, What criteria do you base that on? What does a person or group have to accept in order to be moderate? What about [allowing women to sing in public](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3pTBv6NpI0)? Because ISNA is one group regularly engaged with as ‘moderate’. > [@](#): > > and a low-scale cultural offensive, rewarding non-violent regimes. This would also work best if we stop demonizing the entire religion, and focus on “othering” only the extremists. I agree with othering the extremists, but I disagree with many on the minimum standards of what is required of members of the human race to escape the extremist label. > [@](#): > > Economic leverage against extremist regimes is also a good tactic (which we’re currently using. Funny, that.) By economic leverage you mean buying all of their oil and selling them gobs of weapons? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/272 "2015-11-03T08:43:14Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > People in Muslim countries are not monolithic Tom. The same Iraq that gives us ISIS gives us [Faisal Saeed Al Mutar](http://www.faisalalmutar.com/). The same Pakistan that gives us the Taliban gives us Kunwar Khuldune and Pervez Hoodbhoy. ISIS and the Taliban are going to dismiss what we say, _no matter what it is_. Those of us who are rational, progressive, and critical of orthodoxy, owe it to those brave souls in and from these nations and communities to recognize their voices and ally with them, rather than marginalize them and side with the extremists by adding to the accusations that their critiques are the products of hatred and bigotry. No, The USA “gave us” ISIS. It is a product of imperial conquest, every bit as much as was ObL and al-Queada. Directly, it is a product of injustice born in squalid, illegitimate Iraqi detention camps: that is US detention camps containing Iraqi Muslims in Iraq. > **[What is 'Islamic State'?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144)** > > Islamic State (IS) is a radical Sunni Islamist militant group that has seized large swathes of territory in eastern Syria and across northern and western Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/273 "2015-11-03T08:56:02Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, The USA “gave us” ISIS. It is a product of imperial conquest, every bit as much as was ObL and al-Queada. Directly, it is a product of injustice born in squalid, illegitimate Iraqi detention camps: that is US detention camps containing Iraqi Muslims in Iraq. > > [What is 'Islamic State'? - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144) Look, I am asking, this is not a trick question and it is not back handed sarcasm… I’m asking. Would you say that the USSR gave Afghanistan the Taliban in the same manner that the USA gave Iraq ISIS? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/274 "2015-11-03T09:05:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Look, I am asking, this is not a trick question and it is not back handed sarcasm… I’m asking. > > Would you say that the USSR gave Afghanistan the Taliban in the same manner that the USA gave Iraq ISIS? To my understanding yep, Taliban was born out of opposition to that occupation. In fact you might argue both ISIS and Taliban prospered in the vacuum that remained after the imperial conquest failed (and as a reaction to it). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/275 "2015-11-03T09:23:44Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > To my understanding yep, Taliban was born out of opposition to that occupation. > > In fact you might argue both ISIS and Taliban prospered in the vacuum that remained after the imperial conquest failed (and as a reaction to it). I think that, despite all my negative comments on the topic of the problems with Islam… your statements here, I agree with, either 95% or 99%. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/276 "2015-11-03T09:33:53Z")
That’s cool. Religion aside, maybe it’s even that injustice doesn’t sit well with all kinds of people. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/277 "2015-11-03T09:40:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > That’s cool. Religion aside, maybe it’s even that injustice doesn’t sit well with all kinds of people. I was on another web forum discussion group prior to this and one of the guys there had this as his signature line: Anger, is the appropriate reaction to injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/278 "2015-11-03T10:29:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I was on another web forum discussion group prior to this and one of the guys there had this as his signature line: > > Anger, is the appropriate reaction to injustice. That is a slippery slope. In many long lasting conflicts you will find that both sides are firmly convinced that their own position is that of justice. Their “righteous anger” at the perceived injustices committed by their opponents tends to be a major factor preventing a resolution of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/279 "2015-11-03T12:22:43Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > That is a valid concern, but refusing to acknowledge the realities about Islamic scripture and traditions, refusing to acknowledge that the man Muslims are taught to emulate as the model of perfect behavior was a slave owning rapist, plays right into the hands of the Islamists who marginalize and dominate and persecute the free thinkers who emerge from their communities. No, it doesn’t. Just the _opposite_ - it tells the extremists “We agree with your interpretation of Islam, and agree with you that the moderates are not following Islam as it was meant to be followed”, which doesn’t support the position of the moderates, it _undercuts_ them! It tells [Muslim groups living in Muslim countries](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/) which are [actively fighting things like the practice of child marriage](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?cat.41) in part by trying to convince other Muslims that the practice of child marriage is [not something divinely sanctioned](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.1184.41) and is [not following the example of Muhammad](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.997.41) that they’re wrong and their pro-child-marriage opponents are right. And just how the fuck is that supposed to be _helping_ them?! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/280 "2015-11-03T12:27:19Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > And just how the fuck is that supposed to be _helping_ them?! It’s not. What it’s supposed to do is show that certain people, who are already against Islam because, well, because it’s Islam, can console themselves. You make a grave mistake when you think that those certain people care even a whit about those people they think are suffering under the religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=15)