# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/281 "2015-11-03T12:52:38Z")
It is useful to keep in mind a quote of Hassan II,[“One must not waste time advancing the arguments in good faith in the face of people of bad faith.”](http://www.welovebuzz.com/les-13-plus-belles-citations-de-feu-hassan-ii/) It is clear enough what is being done by some parties. The arguments by the bigotted hate mongers who constantly advance only the black-and-white vision have no other objective than to in the end build the acceptance and the basis for the radical eradicating type solutions. It is not an accident that the same kind of discourses - the same or near same words, _plausible-deniable_ phrases almost lifted directly from the history - are repeated. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/282 "2015-11-03T16:40:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Most Iranians have always had a favorable view of Americans, so we weren’t really in danger of them wanting to kill us. > > What evidence do you have that fewer Muslims want to kill us today than did, say 5 years ago? Yes, I agree that Obama’s policies are a lot better than Bush’s, but I doubt they’ve made much difference at all in terms of Muslims wanting to kill us. Depending on who you’re listening to, Iran’s the Amsterdamn of the ME or a powderkeg ready to blow its nuclear load on the world. Whatever they are, our policies towards them have changed from “Axis of Evil” to peaceful nuclear future. That’s something I credit Obama and liberals with. What evidence would you accept that Muslims’ feelings towards America has changed? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/283 "2015-11-03T19:56:28Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, The USA “gave us” ISIS. It is a product of imperial conquest, every bit as much as was ObL and al-Queada. Directly, it is a product of injustice born in squalid, illegitimate Iraqi detention camps: that is US detention camps containing Iraqi Muslims in Iraq. > > [What is 'Islamic State'? - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144) And I suppose the thousands of middle class European Muslims who have joined ISIS are motivated by the American troop presence in Europe during WWII, and not the desire to violently establish and Islamic state, as they claim. [New Yorker:](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/journey-to-jihad) > [@](#): > > Tens of thousands of Muslim civilians and moderate rebels, mostly Sunnis, died in the early stages of the war in Syria, and many people have argued that the European jihadis were motivated by humanitarian concerns. But thousands of pages of Belgian federal-police documents—including wiretaps and interrogations of jihadis who fought abroad and later returned—show that, even before ISIS announced its presence in Syria, the primary objective for many Europeans, including those in Jejoen’s group, was to establish an Islamic caliphate through violence. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/284 "2015-11-03T19:59:36Z")
> [@The New Yorker](#): > > Tens of thousands of Muslim civilians and moderate rebels, mostly Sunnis, died in the early stages of the war in Syria, and many people have argued that the European jihadis were motivated by humanitarian concerns. But thousands of pages of Belgian federal-police documents—including wiretaps and interrogations of jihadis who fought abroad and later returned—show that, even before ISIS announced its presence in Syria, the primary objective for many Europeans, including those in Jejoen’s group, was to establish an Islamic caliphate through violence. Hank, Hank, Hank. When are you going to learn? It’s not what these people actually _say_ that’s important, it’s what secular white Western randoms on the internet have to say about what they say that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/285 "2015-11-03T20:37:03Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > And I suppose the thousands of middle class European Muslims who have joined ISIS are motivated by the American troop presence in Europe during WWII, and not the desire to violently establish and Islamic state, as they claim. > > [New Yorker:](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/journey-to-jihad) And yet, oddly… > [@](#): > > “Typical recruitment patterns in Europe and the West tell us that it helps if that person doesn’t have a religious background,” Maajid Nawaz, a former Islamist recruiter who now runs a counter-extremism think tank in London called Quilliam, told me. Converts and the newly devout, “dislocated from the traditional hierarchies” of Islam, are less likely to challenge a purported authority on religious matters. Also note that… > [@](#): > > Belkacem ran an intensive twenty-four-week program of ideological training. He began by declaring that the world was divided into two groups: Muslims and non-Muslims. In mainstream mosques, nuance and interpretive religious scholarship are encouraged. Notes collected in police raids show that Belkacem’s lessons reduced the world to flowcharts and categories: Muslims versus infidels; Sharia versus democracy. Belkacem taught the brothers that most imams ignore discussions of jihad and martyrdom because they want to keep state funding. Bart Buytaert, the chairman of De Koepel, told me, “Belkacem and Sharia4Belgium accused us of being non-Muslims.” In other words, this is a political movement, unconnected to mainstream Islam. Also, are you conceding that ISIS was borne from U.S. prison camps? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/286 "2015-11-03T20:56:12Z")
To address the OP: There’s nothing special about Islam. It’s just another Abrahamic religion. The problems that occur in some Muslim-majority countries - oppression of women and LGBT people, for instance - are the same problems that occur in any impoverished, insular society. Arguably, they are the default state of affairs, and Enlightenment values are the aberration. Now, then, how might the situation be improved? In no particular order: 1. Enlightenment ideals, and a secular, democratic model being framed as a viable alternative to the status quo. This means you can’t, say, invade a Muslim nation on false pretenses and kill vast numbers of people, then act surprised when your victims don’t rush to adapt your ideology. Secular, democratic nations must refrain from invading and manipulating their poorer, weaker brethren. This includes the practice of installing secular dictatorships, which is part of what discredited the idea of secular government in parts of the world. 2. Economic opportunity. The more trade, the better. Wealthier people, and wealthier societies, have less need for the aspects of society that encourage repression and regression: tribalism, warlords, rule by elders, rule by priests, and so forth. Wealth - so long as it’s spread around - can, by itself, cure many ills. 3. Exposure to Enlightenment ideas, and how they can be squared with Islam. The Bible didn’t change in the West, society did, and Christianity changed to match. This is normal, and to be encouraged. Mere exposure to new ways of life can work wonders. There’s the famous instance of [the introduction of television to rural India leading to an increase in the status of women](http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emily.oster/papers/tvwomen.pdf). Poor people are cut off from examples of the other ways people can live their lives; wherever possible, introduce unfettered communications. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/287 "2015-11-03T21:05:34Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > And I suppose the thousands of middle class European Muslims who have joined ISIS are motivated by the American troop presence in Europe during WWII, and not the desire to violently establish and Islamic state, as they claim… Whoever said such a stupid and pointless thing deserves of solid rebuke. Point them out for us, **Hank** , that we may all join in. **Uppity** appears to be focused on US actions in Iraq, so it can’t be **Uppity**. Your many fans await your clarification! ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/288 "2015-11-03T22:27:54Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > And I suppose the thousands of middle class European Muslims who have joined ISIS are motivated by the American troop presence in Europe during WWII, and not the desire to violently establish and Islamic state, as they claim. > > [New Yorker:](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/journey-to-jihad) It says “thousands died in the early stages of the war”. I just don’t know what you’re saying? WW2? I can tell you glam ISIS videos on the Internet have attracted several hundred teenage adventurers from the UK, about half have said to have returned. But I just don’t know what you’re saying - what thoughts are you trying to link up? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/289 "2015-11-03T22:53:04Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > …have attracted several hundred teenage adventurers from the UK, about half have said to have returned… Excuse the diversion, but this interests me. I had the impression that it was a one-way trip, a few had escaped, but not many. Half, really? Not questioning your veracity, but it tickles my curiosity knob. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/290 "2015-11-04T00:50:41Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Just the _opposite_ - it tells the extremists “We agree with your interpretation of Islam, and agree with you that the moderates are not following Islam as it was meant to be followed”, which doesn’t support the position of the moderates, it _undercuts_ them! > > It tells [Muslim groups living in Muslim countries](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/) which are [actively fighting things like the practice of child marriage](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?cat.41) in part by trying to convince other Muslims that the practice of child marriage is [not something divinely sanctioned](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.1184.41) and is [not following the example of Muhammad](http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/news.php?item.997.41) that they’re wrong and their pro-child-marriage opponents are right. > > And just how the fuck is that supposed to be _helping_ them?! It is not critics of Islam telling them they are right, it is the collections of hadith considered most authentic by traditional and orthodox Islam! I am 100% in favor of the efforts to promote different interpretations that you cite. But it is not enough. Until you find a way to excise the worst of the misogyny and justifications for violence from the texts, the very notions that traditional Islam is an acceptable basis for laws and codes of conduct MUST be simultaneously challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/291 "2015-11-04T00:56:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And yet, oddly… > > Also note that… > > In other words, this is a political movement, unconnected to mainstream Islam. No, the most pious of Muslims are not the ones most likely to become terrorists. But the decisions of the ones who do are still informed by Islamic source texts and history of violent conquest. > [@](#): > > Also, are you conceding that ISIS was borne from U.S. prison camps? Yes, that is a known fact. The power vacuum that was filled is largely a result of failed American foreign policy. The nature of the organization that filled the vacuum is largely the result of Islamic source texts, mythology, and history. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/292 "2015-11-04T01:10:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Also note that… > > > [@](#): > > > > Belkacem ran an intensive twenty-four-week program of ideological training. He began by declaring that the world was divided into two groups: Muslims and non-Muslims. In mainstream mosques, nuance and interpretive religious scholarship are encouraged. Notes collected in police raids show that Belkacem’s lessons reduced the world to flowcharts and categories: Muslims versus infidels; Sharia versus democracy. Belkacem taught the brothers that most imams ignore discussions of jihad and martyrdom because they want to keep state funding. Bart Buytaert, the chairman of De Koepel, told me, “Belkacem and Sharia4Belgium accused us of being non-Muslims.” > > In other words, this is a political movement, unconnected to mainstream Islam. _You_ should note that while, as you point out, mainstream Islam in Europe is not primary source of most of the terrorist violence directed at non-Muslims, it\* is \*responsible for the widespread tolerance of extreme social control of, and violence against, women within it’s own communities: Here we can see the often cited mainstream [Muslim authorities in Britain counseling victims of domestic violence](https://youtu.be/4gZCFdHkd4A?t=611). They tell them not to go to the police, and even, disgustingly, advise one victim to “be courageous enough” to ask her husband if his attacks are _because of her cooking._ ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/293 "2015-11-04T01:12:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Excuse the diversion, but this interests me. I had the impression that it was a one-way trip, a few had escaped, but not many. Half, really? Not questioning your veracity, but it tickles my curiosity knob. No, it’s like Australia- many go for a while, for the adventure. You occasionally get snippets about numbers from MI6 when they report to one Parliamentary committee or another. It’s their job to keep track of the back and forth and to watch the returnee. This is a slightly amusing insight into the reality: > **[Isis 'not my cup of tea' says British woman who went to Syria to join](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/14/shukee-begum-isis-not-my-cup-of-tea-says-british-woman-syria-to-join)** > > Shukee Begum went to Syria with her five children to be with her jihadi husband Jamal al-Harith, a former Guantánamo Bay detainee ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/294 "2015-11-04T01:17:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > To address the OP: > > There’s nothing special about Islam. It’s just another Abrahamic religion. The problems that occur in some Muslim-majority countries - oppression of women and LGBT people, for instance - are the same problems that occur in any impoverished, insular society. This is a very common mistake, to regard Islam simply as camel flavored Christianity. It is not, it is very different in many ways, and those differences must be taken into account if one is interested in improving the situation. Also, oppression of Muslim women is certainly not limited to _some Muslim-majority countries_. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/295 "2015-11-04T01:29:02Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This is a slightly amusing insight into the reality Here is another:[The War Nerd: Islamic State and American Narcissism.](https://pando.com/2015/02/12/the-war-nerd-islamic-state-and-american-narcissism/) ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/296 "2015-11-04T02:25:52Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > It is not critics of Islam telling them they are right, it is the collections of hadith considered most authentic by traditional and orthodox Islam! “I’m not saying that the most conservative and extremist interpretation of Islam is right, I’m just saying that the most conservative and extremist interpretation of Islam is right.” And there are plenty of traditional and orthodox Muslims who reject that those _ahadith_ are authentic. Shias, for one, who completely reject any Sunni claims about ‘Ā’isha’s being nine at the time of her marriage. > [@](#): > > I am 100% in favor of the efforts to promote different interpretations that you cite. You keep saying that, but then you keep reiterating that the texts themselves are clearly intended to be interpreted only one way, the extremists’ way. > [@](#): > > But it is not enough. Until you find a way to excise the worst of the misogyny and justifications for violence from the texts, the very notions that traditional Islam is an acceptable basis for laws and codes of conduct MUST be simultaneously challenged. They _are_ being challenged, and the texts are being re-interpreted without the misogyny and the justifications for violence (seriously, that’s SIS’s\* entire purpose as an organization\*). But then they’re attacked by the likes of you and Khuldune, condemned as cocktail-party dissemblers who are engaging in “apologia” and refusing to acknowledge the “truth” that what Islam really teaches is what the extremists believe, for _doing the very thing you and he demand of them_: eliminating the misogyny and the justifications for violence in the Qur’an and the _hadith_! You have set up a situation where moderate Muslims literally cannot win - either they aren’t doing _enough_ to change the misogyny and violence in Islam, or they’re hypocrites for even _trying_ to change the misogyny and violence in Islam. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No, the most pious of Muslims are not the ones most likely to become terrorists. Yeah, funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/297 "2015-11-04T02:42:01Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > No, it’s like Australia- many go for a while, for the adventure… Wait, hold it. You mean, ISIS operates in places where the spiders eat horses? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/298 "2015-11-04T03:33:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait, hold it. You mean, ISIS operates in places where the spiders eat horses? No, camels. (Seriously, all the legends about them are crap, but they’re still [fucking terrifying](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solifugae).) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/299 "2015-11-04T03:34:55Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > “I’m not saying that the most conservative and extremist interpretation of Islam is right, I’m just saying that the most conservative and extremist interpretation of Islam is right.” No, I am not saying it is _right_, I am saying it is supported by the texts that are widely considered to be the most authentic collections. > [@](#): > > And there are plenty of traditional and orthodox Muslims who reject that those _ahadith_ are authentic. What is the meaning of “plenty” in this context? These are the collections considered the most authentic by Sunni Muslims, who are, what, 85-90% of Muslims? This comes across as similar to those who argue against the wisdom of wearing a seat belt. “Plenty of people have survived crashes without seat belts”. > [@](#): > > Shias, for one, who completely reject any Sunni claims about ‘Ā’isha’s being nine at the time of her marriage. And [yet](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/04/islamic-horror-iraq-set-to-legalize-marital-rape-child-marriage/): > [@](#): > > In an effort to attract support from Shia Muslims, politicians in Iraq are set to legalize child marriage and marital rape. > The new law, recently approved by the Iraqi cabinet, is expected to be approved by the Iraqi parliament before the upcoming April 30 parliamentary elections. The law lowers the country’s legal age for marriage to 9, legalizes marital rape, and bans women from leaving the home without the permission of their husbands. > The law is a calculated political strategy to please the nation’s Shia Muslim majority ahead of parliamentary elections. Let that sink in. Apparently a majority of Iraqis thinks child marriage and marital rape is a good idea. > The legislation, referred to as the “Ja’afari Law,” describes girls as reaching puberty at age nine, thus making them fit for marriage. The legislation also condones a husband’s right to insist on sexual intercourse with his wife whenever he wishes, and makes the father sole guardian of his children at age two. > The legislation was originally proposed by justice minister Hassan al-Shimari, a member of the Shiite Fadila party, and approved by the cabinet on February 25. > The proposed legislation is almost identical to legislation on the books in neighboring Iran, a Shia-dominated Islamic theocracy. > The new law is repugnant and barbaric, dripping with a misogyny that is difficult to imagine. > [@](#): > > You keep saying that, but then you keep reiterating that the texts themselves are clearly intended to be interpreted only one way, the extremists’ way. How is it “the extremists’ way” when such a high percentage of Muslims support things like killing those who leave Islam, and cutting of people’s hands and feet for theft, or that a wife should always obey her husband? > [@](#): > > They _are_ being challenged, and the texts are being re-interpreted without the misogyny and the justifications for violence (seriously, that’s SIS’s\* entire purpose as an organization\*). But then they’re attacked by the likes of you and Khuldune, condemned as cocktail-party dissemblers who are engaging in “apologia” and refusing to acknowledge the “truth” that what Islam really teaches is what the extremists believe, for _doing the very thing you and he demand of them_: eliminating the misogyny and the justifications for violence in the Qur’an and the _hadith_! The criticism is that limiting the struggle to an attempt to whitewash Islamic texts and history dooms the effort, since the violence and misogyny is so thoroughly embedded. No matter how hard you try, if all that is done is to try to convince people that the texts do not really mean what they say and what they have been interpreted as meaning throughout the centuries, there will always be substantial numbers who interpret them in the more violent and oppressive manner. Muslims must be convinced to elevate humanistic values _above_ Islamic values. When certain Muslims argue that this or that horrible behavior is acceptable or preferred because the Prophet engaged in it, one of the acceptable answers must be _so what_? > [@](#): > > You have set up a situation where moderate Muslims literally cannot win - either they aren’t doing _enough_ to change the misogyny and violence in Islam, or they’re hypocrites for even _trying_ to change the misogyny and violence in Islam. I am not saying it is easy being in that position. I am arguing for for a more prominent humanistic approach that mitigates both the influence of the verses of the Koran and the example of Mohammed as reported in hadith. I do recognize that there are major pitfalls in this approach, as you point out. But there is no meaningful approach without major downsides and potential for anti-pattern effects, including yours. Again, I am _not_ arguing that the approach you favor be abandoned, I am saying that the limitations inherent in this approach should be recognized. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/300 "2015-11-04T10:49:07Z")
Christianity, and especially Western Christianity has established a sort of filtering system over the codes, rules and moral obligations that were laid down when the religion was established. There is hardly a Christian today who tries to follow \*everything \*that is written in the Bible. Instead they follow the parts that are considered acceptable today. That is a good thing. This certainly is helped by the fact that we know very little about the historical Jesus Christ. The Bible does not tell us what Jesus considered to be a suitable marrying age for girls, whether he favored democracy over feudalism, whether he would have supported giving women a higher education or whether he considered slavery to be wrong. This provides Christians with the freedom to project their own moral views upon Jesus and to adapt those views as they evolve over the centuries, all the while imagining that they are being faithful to the essence of Christ’s teachings. Muslims are faced with the problem that we do know a lot more about the founder of their religion. Mohammed was a 7th century ruler and - unsurprisingly - a product of his time. A lot of the views he held and that are apparent from his writings and his biography were common in his time. Today they are outdated but as they have been written down in detail they cannot be filtered away as easily. Still - eventually it is going to happen. Rules that are considered morally untenable today will eventually be explained away as metaphors, tradition errors or whatever. Peoble shape their religion to match a code of morals that suits them. The solution to the problem of Islamic extremism is not to be found within the religion. Societies (or parts thereof) that are backwards thinking or prone to violence will seek out and uphold the ancient codes of Islam that support their preferred view of the world. (When Christianity was as old as Islam is today, Christians very readily did the same.) But as soon as Islamic nations find political stability and economic prosperity these tendencies become less prevalent. Combine that with higher education, a free press and cultural exchange across borders and you have something you can work with. It is not going to make the problems go away tomorrow or even in the next decade - but nothing else will either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=16)