# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/81 "2015-11-01T23:15:30Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Nope. Keep scrolling past that military question. After is, exactly as I said, a follow up question asking “Some people think that for an individual or a small group of persons to target and kill civilians is sometimes justified, while others think that kind of violence is never justified. Which is your opinion?” > > And, as with the question about the military, a higher percentage of Muslims answered “Never justified” to that question than any other religious group, including atheists. Americans who are Muslim, though, in the interest of accuracy and I cheerfully admit mine was wanting. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/82 "2015-11-01T23:15:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 3- i feel that telling the whole brutal truth about Mohammed is the best way to stop the spread of his religion > [@Robert163](#): > > Stop lecturing me. Stop badgering me. Stop insulting me. You do see the hypocrisy here, no? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/83 "2015-11-01T23:17:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Again, you can not , have not, refuted any single claim. Either do so, specifically, or admit by your inability to do so, that I am right. No. You have been refuted by multiple posters in several different threads, supported by citations of actual authorities on the subject. Ignoring your off-topic insistence on repeating your beliefs does nothing to indicate that your beliefs are correct. > [@Robert163](#): > > Please be careful with what you insinuate and imply. Surely, as a moderator, you are aware that you are supposed to react to the actual claims that I make and not invent meanings that I do not actually declare. You have provided a single post in which you called for persistent demonization as some method to prevent further violence. I have pointed out in more than one post why your “plan” would fail. You have refused to engage the actual thread, insisting on re-posting your odd beliefs. Since your only actual contribution to this thread has been to suggest a campaign of demonization which I have pointed out will fail, I am asking you outright what you seriously propose. If your campaign fails, (as it will), what is your backup plan? I have implied nothing about your claim, and I am simply asking you to provide a realistic contribution to this thread, wondering what it might be. Your statements and behavior has been very similar to various anti-war activists I knew in the 1960s who started out opposing our involvement in Vietnam on the grounds that violence was always wrong, but who wound up, after their protests failed to end the war, proposing violence against the government. I do not accuse you of wishing to carry out a crusade, but your behavior indicates that, since you refuse to discuss a realistic plan, I should ask whether you will go to the next step when it fails. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/84 "2015-11-01T23:18:14Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > You do see the hypocrisy here, no? which of the following did Mohammed not do: 1- order the death of of Pagans and Idolaters 2- say that women are to be modest and that a man is a degree above a woman 3- say that slaves can be captured in war 4- say that slaves can be born from slaves 5- capture and own slaves 6- own and use sex slaves 7- say that sex slaves must obey their masters in all commands 8- make his living as a bandit 9- call for punishments like stoning, beheading, and cutting off limbs 10- speak directly for god and gods commands 11- invade mecca by force killing 12 people to take the city 12- engage in many other offensive battles 13- make over 200 statements about the doom and suffering to befall unbelievers. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/85 "2015-11-01T23:23:10Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > There certainly are not many Muslim communities where one could express the above opinions and still be considered Muslim. Really? You have investigated all the communities of Muslim countries to discover that none/few of them would tolerate al-Khwarizmi? I suspect, rather, that you take your information from those who bear animus against Islam who cite only the most Wahhabist speakers for the religion, ignoring anyone who is moderate or progressive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/86 "2015-11-01T23:27:03Z")
Enough with the hijack, Robert163. Address the actual OP or stay out of the thread. Similarly, anyone who feels the need to rebut Robert163, take it to another thread. The OP presumes that Islam is evil/violent and we are not going to hijack the thread to discuss whether or not it is true. If that is the given, what should our response be? [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/87 "2015-11-01T23:28:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. You have been refuted by multiple posters in several different threads, supported by citations of actual authorities on the subject. Ignoring your off-topic insistence on repeating your beliefs does nothing to indicate that your beliefs are correct. And none of those actual authorities have been able to say that those actions did not happen or that those passages do not exist. > [@](#): > > You have provided a single post in which you called for persistent demonization as some method to prevent further violence. I have pointed out in more than one post why your “plan” would fail. You have refused to engage the actual thread, insisting on re-posting your odd beliefs. Since your only actual contribution to this thread has been to suggest a campaign of demonization which I have pointed out will fail, I am asking you outright what you seriously propose. If your campaign fails, (as it will), what is your backup plan? I have implied nothing about your claim, and I am simply asking you to provide a realistic contribution to this thread, wondering what it might be. Your statements and behavior has been very similar to various anti-war activists I knew in the 1960s who started out opposing our involvement in Vietnam on the grounds that violence was always wrong, but who wound up, after their protests failed to end the war, proposing violence against the government. I do not accuse you of wishing to carry out a crusade, but your behavior indicates that, since you refuse to discuss a realistic plan, I should ask whether you will go to the next step when it fails. You are getting awfully close to the line **Tom**!!! I’m not saying you beat your wife and neglect your kids, **Robert** , I’m just saying your statements remind me of those who do!!! > [@](#): > > Since your only actual contribution to this thread has been to suggest a campaign of demonization which I have pointed out will fail, I am asking you outright what you seriously propose. If your campaign fails, (as it will), what is your backup plan? I do not know what will work. But defending Allah/Mohammed is likely not going to change the mind of people who already defend/praise Allah/Mohammed. So criticism is how I plan to (1) change the minds of people on the fence (2) shame the other into silence. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/88 "2015-11-01T23:29:40Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > which of the following did Mohammed not do: > > 1- order the death of of Pagans and Idolaters > 2- say that women are to be modest and that a man is a degree above a woman > 3- say that slaves can be captured in war > 4- say that slaves can be born from slaves > 5- capture and own slaves > 6- own and use sex slaves > 7- say that sex slaves must obey their masters in all commands > 8- make his living as a bandit > 9- call for punishments like stoning, beheading, and cutting off limbs > 10- speak directly for god and gods commands > 11- invade mecca by force killing 12 people to take the city > 12- engage in many other offensive battles > 13- make over 200 statements about the doom and suffering to befall unbelievers. I don’t think any of these are terribly surprising for a seventh-century religious leader. Have a look at what Catholics were writing around the same time, and, indeed, up to a thousand years afterward. We stoned a witch to death (well, technically, pressed, but still with actual stones) in this country in 1692, and bred slaves (and used them for sex) up to the 1860s. There are people out and about today who speak directly for God and God’s commands, and make frequent statements about the doom and suffering to befall sinners. We invade whole countries by force. In other words, while what you say is true, it doesn’t give you the moral high ground that you think it does. If you could argue that Muslims uncritically desire to emulate Mohammed, you might have a point, but they don’t. He’s not the Muslim equivalent of Jesus, you know. Ed: Oops, sorry—just saw the mod note. Posted while I was typing! ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/89 "2015-11-01T23:30:50Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So there’s this thread on Reddit about [this Pew survey from 2010](http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf) that apparently means that 84% of Egyptians think death is the proper response to one who leaves Islam, and of course that means that Islam is a violent, evil religion and thank God the responses aren’t being PC etc etc. > > I wouldn’t want to engage those people, especially not there, for obvious reasons. But what this brought to mind was, what do those people generally want to DO about their beliefs re: Islam? Go to war? Even if they were right, there are other factors at play. Ban Islam in the United States? Good luck with that. Have Islam categorized as a cult, not a religion? Ditto. Racially profile the hell out of anyone with brown skin and/or an Arabic sounding name? The problems there are obvious. Cut off diplomatic ties with Islamic countries? That’s the sanest possible reaction I can think of, and even then there are other issues at stake. So now what? > > Related issue: given that a person has the beliefs described in my first paragraph, are they any more or less acceptable depending on what their answer to my question in my second paragraph is, or is it all equally abhorrent? There aren’t any easy answers, of course. Are you aware of the work of [The Quilliam Foundation](http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/)? [QUOTE=Quilliam] Quilliam is the world’s first counter-extremism think tank set up to address the unique challenges of citizenship, identity, and belonging in a globalised world. Quilliam stands for religious freedom, equality, human rights and democracy. Challenging extremism is the duty of all responsible members of society. Not least because cultural insularity and extremism are products of the failures of wider society to foster a shared sense of belonging and to advance liberal democratic values. With Islamist extremism in particular, we believe a more self-critical approach must be adopted by Muslims. Westophobic ideological influences and social insularity needs to be challenged within Muslim communities by Muslims themselves whilst simultaneously, an active drive towards creating an inclusive civic identity must be pursued by all members of society. Quilliam seeks to challenge what we think, and the way we think. It aims to generate creative, informed and inclusive discussions to counter the ideological underpinnings of terrorism, whilst simultaneously providing evidence-based recommendations to governments for related policy measures. [/QUOTE] One thing that can be done is to stop treating Islamists such as [CAIR](http://www.adl.org/israel-international/anti-israel-activity/c/the-council-on-american-islamic-relations.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.VjagkH6-lBc) and [MSA](https://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/31.pdf)(PDF) as the official face of Islam when engaging in dialouge, and instead begin supporting and engaging with the secularists and reformers from within those communities. Examples include [Pervez Hoodbhoy](http://tribune.com.pk/author/1769/pervez-hoodbhoy/), [Ali A Rizvi](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html), and [Muslims for Progressive Values](http://www.mpvusa.org/). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/90 "2015-11-01T23:32:59Z")
Dr. Drake, I am guessing you cross-posted with my Mod note, above. EVERYONE, a discussion of whether Mohammed was evil is not part of this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/91 "2015-11-01T23:42:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? You have investigated all the communities of Muslim countries to discover that none/few of them would tolerate al-Khwarizmi? I suspect, rather, that you take your information from those who bear animus against Islam who cite only the most Wahhabist speakers for the religion, ignoring anyone who is moderate or progressive. You are ignoring the fact that moderate/progressive Islam exists where democratic rule of law also happens to exist. 95% of the people in Egypt say that it is good that Islam plays a large role in their laws. Indonesia 95%, Pakistan 88%, Nigeria 88%, Lebanon 72%. Favorable view of Hezbollah: Jordan 55%, Lebanon 52%, Nigeria 45%, Indonesia 43%. Role of Islam in politics, Large: Indonesia 89%, Nigeria 88%, Turkey 69%. Those are just a few of the many findings from the pew poll. So, perhaps you could quit trying to say it is only a handful of fringe elements that strongly support a strong orthodox view of the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/92 "2015-11-01T23:43:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Dr. Drake, I am guessing you cross-posted with my Mod note, above. > > EVERYONE, a discussion of whether Mohammed was evil is not part of this thread. > > [/Moderating] abuse of power! ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/93 "2015-11-01T23:46:56Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I don’t think any of these are terribly surprising for a seventh-century religious leader. So, you admit they are all true. Thank you. > [@](#): > > In other words, while what you say is true, it doesn’t give you the moral high ground that you think it does. If you could argue that Muslims uncritically desire to emulate Mohammed, you might have a point, but they don’t. He’s not the Muslim equivalent of Jesus, you know. Radical Muslims do ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/94 "2015-11-02T00:06:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Have a look at what Catholics were writing around the same time, and, indeed, up to a thousand years afterward. We stoned a witch to death (well, technically, pressed, but still with actual stones) in this country in 1692, and bred slaves (and used them for sex) up to the 1860s. There are people out and about today who speak directly for God and God’s commands, and make frequent statements about the doom and suffering to befall sinners. We invade whole countries by force. None of which is sanctioned by the NT. In fact, the NT talks about non violence and turning the other cheek, meekness and humility. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/95 "2015-11-02T00:10:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > None of which is sanctioned by the NT. In fact, the NT talks about non violence and turning the other cheek, meekness and humility. Doesn’t it also threaten disbelievers with eternal hell-fire? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/96 "2015-11-02T00:13:14Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Doesn’t it also threaten disbelievers with eternal hell-fire? Yes I am not a fan of christianity ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/97 "2015-11-02T00:22:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? You have investigated all the communities of Muslim countries to discover that none/few of them would tolerate al-Khwarizmi? I suspect, rather, that you take your information from those who bear animus against Islam who cite only the most Wahhabist speakers for the religion, ignoring anyone who is moderate or progressive. So is it actually your position that a substantial percentage of Muslims would consider someone who claims the following to be Muslim: “the prophets are billy goats with long beards who cannot claim any intellectual or spiritual superiority” and that the Koran is “an assorted mixture of ‘absurd and inconsistent fables,’ which has ridiculously been judged inimitable, when, in fact, its language, style, and its much-vaunted ‘eloquence’ are far from being faultless.”? If so we can add it to the long and growing list of your absurd statements. One of the recent ones being an actual _accusation_ that a poster was “conflating modern Islam with Mohammed”. Your attempt to frame everything critical of Islam as being motivated by “animus against Islam” grows ever more desperate. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/98 "2015-11-02T00:45:11Z")
**Robert163** , I’ll come back and talk with you in another thread if you want to start one, but the Mods Have Spoken for this one. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/99 "2015-11-02T00:46:42Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **Robert163** , I’ll come back and talk with you in another thread if you want to start one, but the Mods Have Spoken for this one. one mod who hates religious criticism has spoken ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/100 "2015-11-02T00:59:28Z")
I think you need moderate Muslims to stop tying themselves to the radicals and tacitly defending them. Examples exist in this very thread. That and a continuous influx of Western media and ideas, such that the Muslim world is forced to democratize and liberalize by the inertia. The more they see how archaic their worldview, the faster they will embrace the tolerance that makes the West superior economically, technologically, culturally, artistically, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=6)