# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/121 "2015-11-02T02:59:30Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > But what if your basic premise is wrong? What if the majority of American muslim women who wear a hijab do so because they truly feel better for wearing it? What if they like the way it looks? What if they’re not being coerced into wearing it in any way and see it as merely one aspect of practising their religion properly? If _that’s_ true, then the social pressure you’re advocating would just be a total waste of time and effort. I am convinced the majority of them actually don’t feel that way. But I could be wrong about that. What I am pretty darn certain about is that a lot of them do not like it. 10%, 40%, 60%, I will leave that up to you to decide. But if even 10% of them are forced into doing something they don’t like, that is 10% too much. > [@](#): > > No. As I said, I suggest banning the niqab. I wouldn’t suggest banning the hijab because it simply doesn’t send anything like the same sort of misogynistic message. So you are ok with misogyny as long as it is not excessive? Because a hijab is at least mildly sexist. Any practice that separates the genders, is by definition, sexist. We are disagreeing about degree. And, why should I listen to someone who’s purpose is to defend religion when they say they do not agree to the - degree - of a certain infraction? You are doing a fairly good job here but you are not recognizing your own bias. I can recognize mine. Not everything I say is 100% correct. But, it can not be dismissed as easily as you would like, either. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/122 "2015-11-02T03:01:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, **Tom** , you are talking to someone who has opposed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. > > So perhaps you could stop making implications about my condemnation of religion that go beyond the scope of what I actually say. Wrong. You have made the odious and doomed-to-failure claim that we should try to shame Muslims into abandoning their religion. You repeated the claim without ever responding to the clear point that your proposal would fail. Your behavior over several months matches the behavior of a group of people with whom I have had experience. Since you refused to actually address how your plan would work, i asked you a question regarding your plan after it failed. I proposed one possible scenario to give you the option to say, “_I would do this, instead._” I did not suggest that that would be your plan, but I hoped it would prompt you to actually give some thought to your idea. You do not seem to be able to actually address the situation except to repeat your odd, doomed proposal. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/123 "2015-11-02T03:10:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 95% of the people in Egypt say that it is good that Islam plays a large role in their laws. Indonesia 95%, Pakistan 88%, Nigeria 88%, Lebanon 72%. That’s the percentage of Muslims who think Islam plays a large role in politics also think it’s a good thing, actually. > [@](#): > > Role of Islam in politics, Large: Indonesia 89%, Nigeria 88%, Turkey 69%. [Hmmm…](http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/22/public-sees-religions-influence-waning-2/) > [@](#): > > Nearly three-quarters of the public (72%) now thinks religion is losing influence in American life, up 5 percentage points from 2010 to the highest level in Pew Research polling over the past decade. And most people who say religion’s influence is waning see this as a bad thing. > > Perhaps as a consequence, a growing share of the American public wants religion to play a role in U.S. politics. The share of Americans who say churches and other houses of worship should express their views on social and political issues is up 6 points since the 2010 midterm elections (from 43% to 49%). The share who say there has been “too little” expression of religious faith and prayer from political leaders is up modestly over the same period (from 37% to 41%). > > […] > > The public’s appetite for religious influence in politics is increasing in part because those who continue to identify with a religion (e.g., Protestants, Catholics and others) have become significantly more supportive of churches and other houses of worship speaking out about political issues and political leaders talking more often about religion. > > […] > > Two-thirds of white evangelical Protestants (66%) now express support for having churches speak out on social and political issues, up from 56% in 2010. > > […] > > Most white evangelical Protestants (68%) say there has been too little expression of religious faith and prayer by political leaders. > > […] > > Roughly six-in-ten Americans (59%) say it is important for members of Congress to have strong religious beliefs, a number largely unchanged since the 2010 midterm cycle. Nearly three-quarters of Republicans and those who lean toward the Republican Party say that members of Congress should have strong religious beliefs (72%). > > […] > > Most people who identify with a religion, ranging from 83% of white evangelicals to 59% of white Catholics, say it is important for members of Congress to have strong religious beliefs. > > […] > > Nearly three-quarters of Americans (72%) now say that religion is losing influence in American life, the highest share to hold this view in Pew Research surveys going back to 2001. > > As in previous surveys, most people who say religion is losing its influence in American life see this as a negative development, with 56% of the public as a whole saying it is a “bad thing” that religion is losing sway in the U.S. The concern is most pronounced among white evangelical Protestants, 77% of whom say religion is losing influence and that this is a bad thing, but is shared by majorities of white mainline Protestants (66%), black Protestants (65%) and Catholics (61%). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/124 "2015-11-02T03:11:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So what? So then facts are irrelevant to you. You have accused me probably at least 20 times in the past 2 months of being ignorant and uninformed but when faceed with a set of facts your response is “So What?”. It appears that you do not care about facts at all. > [@](#): > > You appear to be opposed to democracy. It appears as if you are not able to restrain yourself from making implications that both unfounded and untrue. Could you at least - try - to restrain yourself. > [@](#): > > Majorities in several countries would like their religion to be entwined with their government. The fact that you do not like their religion is irrelevant. It is relevant, if, it affects the freedom and quality of life of the people who live there. I’m not talking about overthrowing their government, I’m talking about their lack of respect for what we in the west consider fundamental and basic human rights and freedoms. > [@](#): > > Do you really think that condemning their religion is going to make it easier to get them to change? I don’t expect anything to change, over there, not now, not for a few decades at least. But I can make sure that when they bring their religion to Europe and the USA, it is, as you say, the moderate version and not the version in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/125 "2015-11-02T03:21:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Wrong. You have made the odious and doomed-to-failure claim that we should try to shame Muslims into abandoning their religion. You repeated the claim without ever responding to the clear point that your proposal would fail. Your behavior over several months matches the behavior of a group of people with whom I have had experience. Since you refused to actually address how your plan would work, i asked you a question regarding your plan after it failed. I proposed one possible scenario to give you the option to say, “_I would do this, instead._” I did not suggest that that would be your plan, but I hoped it would prompt you to actually give some thought to your idea. You do not seem to be able to actually address the situation except to repeat your odd, doomed proposal. Well, not confronting them would be a doomed proposal as well. And shaming works pretty well with snake handlers and people who speak in tongues here in america. A lot better than trying to “Reason” with them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/126 "2015-11-02T03:28:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So then facts are irrelevant to you. You have accused me probably at least 20 times in the past 2 months of being ignorant and uninformed but when faceed with a set of facts your response is “So What?”. > > It appears that you do not care about facts at all. Sure, I care about facts. The fact that the majority of people in different places approve of beliefs they share, (which is the only thing your “facts” assert), simply horrifies you because you disagree with them. In terms of this thread, it simply means that your plan of shaming them is doomed to failure. That leads to my “So what?” response. With that many people embracing something you hate, you are not going to persuade them to change their beliefs by insulting them. > [@Robert163](#): > > It appears as if you are not able to restrain yourself from making implications that both unfounded and untrue. Could you at least - try - to restrain yourself. Restrain myself from what? You expressed negative reaction to the percentage of people who embrace the religion in the land where they live. That is a pretty clear case of opposing democratic action. Even if the current government in many of those places is authoritarian, in the manner of religion, at least, the people support it. Opposing that is opposing democracy. > [@Robert163](#): > > It is relevant, if, it affects the freedom and quality of life of the people who live there. I’m not talking about overthrowing their government, I’m talking about their lack of respect for what we in the west consider fundamental and basic human rights and freedoms. Which you appear to want to change buy attacking their beliefs. How do you see that working? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/127 "2015-11-02T03:35:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sure, I care about facts. The fact that the majority of people in different places approve of beliefs they share, (which is the only thing your “facts” assert), simply horrifies you because you disagree with them. In terms of this thread, it simply means that your plan of shaming them is doomed to failure. That leads to my “So what?” response. The gap between what you tell yourself and what actually is is staggeringly wide. My assertion is that The Koran is a dominant, oppressive force that is responsible for oppression and misery. Your assertion is, no, the Koran/Islam is a moderate religion. Almost all of those countries in that poll support Sharia Law. By majority opinion. So now you are going to make the claim, I suppose, that Sharia Law is not oppressive and that it does not stifle personal freedom and liberty. > [@](#): > > Which you appear to want to change buy attacking their beliefs. How do you see that working? Well, its working pretty good against Fundamentalist Christians here in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/128 "2015-11-02T03:35:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, not confronting them would be a doomed proposal as well. You seem to have a need to “confront” them. Perhaps other forms of persuasion would work better. > [@Robert163](#): > > And shaming works pretty well with snake handlers and people who speak in tongues here in america. A lot better than trying to “Reason” with them. Really? How many snake handlers do you know have switched their beliefs because they were routinely mocked? And the number of people who speak in tongues has continued to grow over the last forty years. I know of no one who has abandoned that ritual because they were mocked. Mocking is seen as a form of persecution that strengthens their faith. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/129 "2015-11-02T03:38:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You seem to have a need to “confront” them. Perhaps other forms of persuasion would work better. perhaps > [@](#): > > Really? How many snake handlers do you know have switched their beliefs because they were routinely mocked? And the number of people who speak in tongues has continued to grow over the last forty years. I know of no one who has abandoned that ritual because they were mocked. Mocking is seen as a form of persecution that strengthens their faith. How many less snake handlers are there now than there were 50 years ago? 100? So I’d say that yes, mocking is going to help. I didn’t say it would change the mind of die hard believers. Just ostracize them and therefor, their influence. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/130 "2015-11-02T03:42:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Construct](#): > > > > If you want to run around in your deserts burning people in cages and throwing gays from towers, I really don’t care. Just don’t try to invade my lands with your pedophile-following religion. > > You are wining no points for blatant trolling. > > [/Moderating] I’m well aware that you don’t like me, since you’ve given me warnings in forums that you don’t even moderate. But this is pretty weak. I’ve used exactly this [language](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18584072&postcount=100) [for months](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18640993&postcount=42) [without](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18465966&postcount=3) [warning](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18702649&postcount=28). > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > See, this is a case in point. > > “No Muslims in the West” is a statement by someone who is desperately trying to assert a claim: we (whoever his little group is) own the West, when the reality is quite different. There have been Muslims in the West for a long time, and mosques, and Islam. They have had a stake in the West for ages. The statement is about someone who is struggling with the fact that white / Christian / Anglophone privilege (whatever his specific issue is) is unjust, and increasingly being called out. > > “Run around in deserts” makes Muslims sound like aimless children. We do things in an orderly fashion, in a green and pleasant land. “Burning people in cages”: how barbaric! We’re not barbaric! Never mind the death penalty, systemic racism, etc. They throw gays from towers! We’ve been enlightened about gay people since 2013, except that they can still lose their job for being gay in many states. > > Oh, and they follow a pedophile. Mohammed certainly did have sex with a child, so that’s technically correct and disgusting and reprehensible. If Mohammed were still alive, I’d be the first to excoriate everything associated with him for this reason. However, he’s been dead for over a thousand years, and the history of medieval Christian Europe is full of 12-year-old girls getting married. I don’t find the difference between 9 and 12 sufficient to erase the horror, so all I can do is hope that contemporary Muslims don’t condone this practice. Lo and behold, outside of a few corners where women are severely oppressed, they do not. The West is the cultural and social inheritance of Westerners, aka White people. These are our lands, and we have a right to continue the enjoy the labors of our ancestors. As far as Muslims in the West: well, there were the Moors, who inhabited Spain for about 700 years. Then, in an act that warms my heart, every single one was driven to the sea or killed. Next, we have the Turks, who colonized the farthest edge of Europe for about 800 years, and who currently inhabit a tiny sliver of Europe at the moment. Finally, there’s the remnants of a few Turkish colonies that were forcibly converted from Christendom, like Albania. In each case, Muslims are not “part” of the West, but rather an opposing, external force, fighting and occupying the West’s land. For making Muslims seem childish? Well, they haven’t built much in the last few hundred years, save the lucky few who inherited petrostates thanks to Western oil drilling technology. There is, of course, a very big difference between brutally executing religious dissidents and sexual minorities and discriminating against them, a point you seem to gloss over. > [@tomndebb](#): > > This is just silly. Muslims already live, work, and worship in Western Europe and North America. When polled on social attitudes, their answers generally match the answers of the Christian and secular neighbors among whom they live. Calling for ethnic cleansing, (the logical result of your statement), would harm the countries in which they live, (disrupting economies and inciting civil unrest), and create more hatred among the countries where they are the majority. > It is a nonsense solution based on ignorance and unreasoning hatred. This is not in accordance with reality, and is in fact magical anti-scientific polling. [Non-partisan opinion polls](https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf)reveal that less than 4% of European Christians can be classified as fundamentalist, as compared to 44% of European Muslims (page 2, since you probably don’t believe me). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/131 "2015-11-02T03:43:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So now you are going to make the claim, I suppose, that Sharia Law is not oppressive and that it does not stifle personal freedom and liberty. There is no one Sharia. Sharia is an approach to law that has several different forms. Some of them, (particularly under Wahhabist influence), are extremely oppressive, but pretending that there is one, oppressive Sharia is just wrong. > [@Robert163](#): > > Well, its working pretty good against Fundamentalist Christians here in the USA. Utterly wrong. The rise, first of the Moral Majority and, later, of the Tea Party are directly tied to the increase in Fundamentalist Christianity. In the 1960s, over 60% of Americans recognized that evolution is a correct approach to biological science. Now that number is down to barely 50% (or fewer)–a fact based directly on the growth of Fundamentalist Christianity. Have they lost some court battles? Yes. However, mocking them has done nothing to reduce their numbers or change their views. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/132 "2015-11-02T03:47:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There is no one Sharia. Sharia is an approach to law that has several different forms. Some of them, (particularly under Wahhabist influence), are extremely oppressive, but pretending that there is one, oppressive Sharia is just wrong. as predicted > [@](#): > > Utterly wrong. The rise, first of the Moral Majority and, later, of the Tea Party are directly tied to the increase in Fundamentalist Christianity. In the 1960s, over 60% of Americans recognized that evolution is a correct approach to biological science. Now that number is down to barely 50% (or fewer)–a fact based directly on the growth of Fundamentalist Christianity. Have they lost some court battles? Yes. However, mocking them has done nothing to reduce their numbers or change their views. Or, perhaps, the far religious right are so vocal now, the past decade, precisely because they recognize they are on the loosing end of a cultural war that is now 50 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/133 "2015-11-02T03:52:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Yes. However, mocking them has done nothing to reduce their numbers or change their views. You know, Tom, I can not honestly ever think of a single example of a Christian changing their mind, for example, about the Flood, when it is pointed out that there is not enough water on the earth to make that kind of flood. Not once, ever, have I seen a christian change their mind about the age of the earth when plate tectonics have been explained to them. Not Once So you implied assertion that I should try to reason with them strikes me as extraordinarily bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/134 "2015-11-02T03:55:45Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > This is not in accordance with reality, and is in fact magical anti-scientific polling. [Non-partisan opinion polls](https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf)reveal that less than 4% of European Christians can be classified as fundamentalist, as compared to 44% of European Muslims (page 2, since you probably don’t believe me). I don’t spend much time worrying about what someone decides to label “Fundamentalism.” I pay much more attention to the actual attitudes of people about their lives and actions. As noted in this post, [summarizing a number of different polls](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18557261#post18557261), Muslims in Europe tend to think and act the same way their neighbors do. They are already assimilating and odd claims based on the arbitrarily assigned values based on shifting definitions of skin color do not change that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/135 "2015-11-02T03:58:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So you implied assertion that I should try to reason with them strikes me as extraordinarily bizarre. After all the whining you have done that I have attributed statements to you that you have not made, it is interesting that you accuse me of suggesting we “reason with” anyone when I have not suggested anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/136 "2015-11-02T04:01:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > After all the whining you have done that I have attributed statements to you that you have not made, it is interesting that you accuse me of suggesting we “reason with” anyone when I have not suggested anything like that. Well, unlike you, I actually say what I mean, so if you don’t think shaming works, and, you don’t think reason works, what then is supposed to work? Perhaps if you defined your position as it actually was, instead of just reacting and listing a catalog of things you disagree with, people would be able to understand a little bit better where you stand on issues. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/137 "2015-11-02T04:02:05Z")
I am going off to engage in real life. Robert123, just stick to this topic without getting sidetracked expressing your hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/138 "2015-11-02T04:05:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am going off to engage in real life. > > Robert123, just stick to this topic without getting sidetracked expressing your hatred. I have stuck to the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/139 "2015-11-02T04:22:02Z")
This discussion of possible avenues to undermine the political power of religion (and not just Islam - similar tactics could be adapted to other theocratic influences on government) is being unfortunately waylaid by the personal hobbies of someone who died 1400 years ago. What difference does it make? Rhetorical question - I don’t care what difference it makes. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/140 "2015-11-02T04:28:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This discussion of possible avenues to undermine the political power of religion (and not just Islam - similar tactics could be adapted to other theocratic influences on government) is being unfortunately waylaid by the personal hobbies of someone who died 1400 years ago. What difference does it make? > > Rhetorical question - I don’t care what difference it makes. Slavery, murder, theft, and rape are more than “hobbies”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=8)