# Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328 "2015-11-01T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/161 "2015-11-02T05:03:13Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > So…it’s a problem that needs to be addressed, right? I mean, we cannot abide Christians until they disavow completely and unequivocally many passages in their fundamental text. Right? It has been addressed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/162 "2015-11-02T05:05:45Z")
Mostly. There are still parts of the world where they kill “witches”, but the difference is that it’s small areas far from what we’d call civilization. There are no theocratic Christian governments in existence today except nominally(such as Britain, which has an official church). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/163 "2015-11-02T05:07:17Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It has been addressed. So at what point does the legislation citing it stop? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/164 "2015-11-02T05:11:47Z")
There’s a huge gap between elements of Christianity still being in government and a theocracy. If there was actually equivalence we’d be stoning people for adultery and closing everything on Sunday(although we still have some blue laws). But the biggest difference is simply that we allow other faiths to practice throughout the West. BTW, you’ll also notice that gay marriage is only legal in Christian countries. It’s not just Islamic countries that ban it, Hindu and Buddhist countries ban it too. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/165 "2015-11-02T05:13:19Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > So at what point does the legislation citing it stop? What? I was referring to the fact that, the barbarity and extreme violence of the OT, that the Jewish Clergy, and lay people alike, had pretty much put an end to all of that for at least 1000 years before Mohammed was even born. There has never been a widespread consensus of non violence within Islam, as far as I know. I am - not -saying the Islamic people as a whole are violent. I am saying, as far as I know there has never been (virtual) complete consensus for non violence, the way their is in Judiasim. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/166 "2015-11-02T05:15:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s a huge gap between elements of Christianity still being in government and a theocracy. If there was actually equivalence we’d be stoning people for adultery and closing everything on Sunday(although we still have some blue laws). But the biggest difference is simply that we allow other faiths to practice throughout the West. Probably half the privately owned stores, restaurants and muffler shops, etc, are closed on Sunday in the town I live in. I know people will think I am exaggerating, but I’m not. I have lived here for 6 months and I still get surprised quite often when I pull up to a store on sunday and see that it is closed… ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/167 "2015-11-02T05:20:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, you’ll also notice that gay marriage is only legal in Christian countries. It’s not just Islamic countries that ban it, Hindu and Buddhist countries ban it too. Pump the breaks, First World Nations are more likely to recognize SSM. Christianity on its own did not endeavor to bring us to this enlightened state. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/168 "2015-11-02T05:21:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Probably half the privately owned stores, restaurants and muffler shops, etc, are closed on Sunday in the town I live in. I know people will think I am exaggerating, but I’m not. I have lived here for 6 months and I still get surprised quite often when I pull up to a store on sunday and see that it is closed… Love your anecdotes. Could you tell one where your anecdotes convinced anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/169 "2015-11-02T05:24:47Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Love your anecdotes. Could you tell one where your anecdotes convinced anyone? Convinced people with the agenda to defend religion and blatantly insist it has no negative impact on daily life? Probably not. But it is true that half the privately owned stores in this town are closed on sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/170 "2015-11-02T05:25:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Continue to remind everyone that Mohammed was a murderer, a thief, a slaver, and a war mongering psychopath. Point out that he was Allahs direct representative on earth, that he explicitly stated gods will at gods command. Therefor the Muslim god too is a murdering psychopath who supports slavery and the oppression of women. > > Remind them of this, everytime someone, anyone, says that Islam is a religion of peace. Doesn’t hold water unless someone can prove the existence of Allah or any other god. Pointing out that Islam is a political stance masquerading as a religion that condones rape, murder, etc. is much more viable. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/171 "2015-11-02T05:32:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Convinced people with the agenda to defend religion and blatantly insist it has no negative impact on daily life? Probably not. > > But it is true that half the privately owned stores in this town are closed on sunday. I would consider a day off of work a positive impact on daily life for many, but your opinion is focused on how the world affects you. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/172 "2015-11-02T05:37:39Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Firstly, we need to establish that there _is_ a strong social pressure for muslim women in the US to wear the hijab. A hijab, after all, is just a headscarf. There’s nothing particularly oppressive about headscarves. My mum wears a headscarf. She just likes them. And many hijabs are quite decorative and look very nice. I would imagine that quite a lot of muslim women in the US wear the hijab because they _want_ to wear them, in which case telling them they should stop because they’re making themselves complicit in their own sexual oppression is probably just going to piss them off. Frankly, I doubt you’d be able to muster much popular support for a campaign against hijabs. Most people simply don’t care about them. > > Let’s look at an easier case. The [niqab](https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=niqab&espv=2&biw=819&bih=713&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI6pTC5dHwyAIVgtcaCh0EoAFD). The niqab is a very different garment, which conveys a very different message. It is an explicit attempt to equate piety with the complete and total invisibility of women. It’s much easier to argue that the niqab is sexist. Moreover, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some, perhaps many, women who wear the niqab do so under duress. [For instance:](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10308793/Civilised-society-must-not-draw-a-veil-over-the-niqab.html) > > The niqab seems to be a much easier target for the “social pressure” that you are advocating. What would be the likely consequences of such social pressure? Well, firstly, those women who actually choose to wear the niqab would probably feel like you were attacking them. This is likely to make them _less_ receptive, not more. It might even make them more likely to impose the niqab on their own daughters. > > Secondly, those women who are coerced into wearing it by their male relatives would likely feel trapped between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they would suddenly feel like they were facing greater social disapproval from non-muslims. On the other hand, they would _still_ have to contend with the social disapproval they would face from their male relatives. > > Now, you might think that the social pressure you’re prescribing might make these men change their minds about the niqab, but that is far from certain. It’s important to understand _why_ these men coerce their wives and daughters into wearing the niqab. They believe that by doing so they’re safeguarding the honour and modesty of “their” women. This is obviously going to be far more important to them than your opinion of what women should be allowed to wear, and they might well just end up doubling down. > > The women in question, being tied to these men by blood or community, would probably find it much harder to resist pressure from them than they would to resist pressure from people like yourself. The social pressure you’re recommending probably wouldn’t be strong enough to entice them to abandon the niqab and would only succeed in making them feel more uncomfortable in their own skin. > > Personally, I despise the niqab, but I don’t think social pressure is the way to go here. If I were in charge, I’d be far more draconian. I’d just ban the fucking thing. That way, those women who are forced to wear it have a valid reason not to (like the medical students referenced above). As for those women who do want to wear it? Well, they can vote with their feet and emigrate any time they like. > > Edit: I should note that, while the niqab might be an extremely uncommon sight in America, I’m from England, and I work in the Whitechapel area of Central London so I see women in niqabs all the time, hence the strength of my feelings on the matter. A [hijab](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cw_X8e8zUjQ/TQq79Mq_vCI/AAAAAAAAAGA/QMt38wtGHMw/s640/Woman+to+Proper+Hijab+12.jpg) is not just a headscarf, it covers the neck, ears, and all of the hair. A [duppata](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3c/ea/9c/3cea9c2971a9587c1c348f7498dd1951.jpg) is often used as a headscarf. You make some great points about the problems with social pressure having unintended consequences. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/3hwpt9/why_i_believe_the_hijab_is_sexist_discriminatory/) is a different opinion concerning the negative effects of hijab on muslim women. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/173 "2015-11-02T05:41:37Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Pump the breaks, First World Nations are more likely to recognize SSM. Christianity on its own did not endeavor to bring us to this enlightened state. Some third world Christian majority countries have legalized it too. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/174 "2015-11-02T06:06:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Some third world Christian majority countries have legalized it too. Of course those aren’t third world nations with close cultural ties to a first world nation, right? Admitting that would add gray into your black and white world. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/175 "2015-11-02T06:22:13Z")
Now you’re just making excuses. There are non-Chrisitan countries with close ties to us and haven’t legalized gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/176 "2015-11-02T06:30:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Probably half the privately owned stores, restaurants and muffler shops, etc, are closed on Sunday in the town I live in. I know people will think I am exaggerating, but I’m not. I have lived here for 6 months and I still get surprised quite often when I pull up to a store on sunday and see that it is closed… What is your solution to this “problem”? That the government force privately owned stores to operate on your schedule? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/177 "2015-11-02T06:35:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What is your solution to this “problem”? That the government force privately owned stores to operate on your schedule? Seriously? You know, it is possible to complain about something without that necessarily meaning you want the government to step in and do something about it… As to how to fix it? It will solve itself, when this small rural town catches up with modern contemporary america. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/178 "2015-11-02T06:38:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You know, it is possible to complain about something without that necessarily meaning you want the government to step in and do something about it… The complaining comes across as ineffectual. In any case, what is your pressing need for a muffler shop on Sunday? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/179 "2015-11-02T06:57:42Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The complaining comes across as ineffectual. > > In any case, what is your pressing need for a muffler shop on Sunday? If you’ll forgive the cultural cross reference: Winter is Coming. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/180 "2015-11-02T08:26:44Z")
If my neighbor would take his piece of shit Chevy for a new muffler on Sunday rather than Monday, I might seek out a Methodist Church to offer thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328.md?page=10)