Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it?

[Human_Action]

@drad_dog

There are lots of rich and upper middle class (and Western) terrorist recruits. It’s become a constant theme. They are seemingly not disconnected at all. If they are so disconnected how are they recruited? Do mosques play no part?

I’m no expert, but in the New Yorker piece Hank Beecher linked to, the subject converted from Catholicism to Islam, briefly attended a mainstream mosque, then was referred by a neighbor to Sharia4Belgium, an extremist group. His imam warned him away from the group, so he left the mosque and began spending most of his time with Sharia4Belgium, whose leader cautioned him not to tell his parents about the group. There, he was socially isolated (his phone SIM destroyed), and indoctrinated by an atmosphere where radical violence was considered “quite normal”, and discussion centered around where to go fight.

So, basically a cult.

[Dr.Strangelove]

Of course there are some concrete actions I’d like to take with regards to Islam, such as shutting down ties to Saudi Arabia and switching to alternative fuels so as to reduce our interests in the Middle East, but that’s not really what I have in mind when I badmouth Islam.

At any given time there are a set of ideas in society’s consciousness–a zeitgeist. Some of these ideas are considered extreme and abhorrent, while others have been normalized and considered mundane.

Take homosexuality for instance. Several decades ago, homosexuality was considered deviant, while today–in the western world–it’s been almost completely normalized. This is a fantastic thing because homosexuality is completely harmless and the normalization has been a great benefit to gay rights.

Christianity has historically been normalized and I don’t wish that to continue because I think it does great harm to society. I want people to see it as an evil bronze age myth. I want children to see it that way so that they don’t join the cult, or fall away when they become adults.

Islam is an even worse example of religion and while it has not been fully normalized in the West, I don’t wish that to ever be the case. I want it to continue being seen as an evil myth started by a pedophile. I want to remind people this is the case so that they never get the idea that it’s harmless.

I don’t have any particular concrete goals in mind when I express my opinion on Islam. I’m just contributing my part to the zeitgeist. I doubt that anyone that’s already been indoctrinated will be affected. But it’s possible that some children will be turned away if the ideas are floating out there in the public consciousness.

In the US, the younger generation is less likely to be religious than their parents. So I think the principle is working to some extent, at least with regards to Christianity. I don’t know if there’s been any effect on Islam between generations. But if the strategy works in one place then it may work elsewhere.

I should be clear that I don’t necessarily have anything against Muslim individuals. Likewise, I don’t have anything against fat individuals, even though I think the normalization of obesity in the US has done great harm. It’s possible to view obesity as a scourge without shaming individuals.

[A_isha]

@Human_Action

I’m no expert, but in the New Yorker piece Hank Beecher linked to, the subject converted from Catholicism to Islam, briefly attended a mainstream mosque, then was referred by a neighbor to Sharia4Belgium, an extremist group. His imam warned him away from the group, so he left the mosque and began spending most of his time with Sharia4Belgium, whose leader cautioned him not to tell his parents about the group. There, he was socially isolated (his phone SIM destroyed), and indoctrinated by an atmosphere where radical violence was considered “quite normal”, and discussion centered around where to go fight.

So, basically a cult.

And I’m having a really difficult time understanding how telling him that the interpretation of Islam favored by this group was the way the texts should be followed and that Muslims with a moderate message are going against the Qur’an, the hadith, and 1400 years of scholarly opinion would have dissuaded him in any way, shape, or form as opposed to encouraging him.

[Velocity]

Islam gets a lot of defense by liberals because it’s a minority religion in America. But should that really be a factor in supporting it? Should something automatically be defended just because it’s in the minority?

[Monty]

@Velocity

Islam gets a lot of defense by liberals because it’s a minority religion in America.

You wouldn’t happen to have, perhaps, any proof whatsoever of that assertion?

[tomndebb]

@Velocity

Islam gets a lot of defense by liberals because it’s a minority religion in America. But should that really be a factor in supporting it? Should something automatically be defended just because it’s in the minority?

Islam is attacked a lot by the right wing because it’s a minority religion in America. But should that really be a factor in opposing it? Should something automatically be attacked just because it’s in the minority?

[Velocity]

@tomndebb

Islam is attacked a lot by the right wing because it’s a minority religion in America. But should that really be a factor in opposing it? Should something automatically be attacked just because it’s in the minority?

Not true; you rarely hear right wingers opposing Shintoism.

Let’s not make false equivalencies.

[A_isha]

@Velocity

Not true; you rarely hear right wingers opposing Shintoism.

Let’s not make false equivalencies.

I seem to have missed all those liberals defending Shintoism because it’s a minority religion. Or Scientology. Or Mormonism. Or…well, you get the idea.

[A_isha]

@A_isha

I seem to have missed all those liberals defending Shintoism because it’s a minority religion. Or Scientology. Or Mormonism. Or…well, you get the idea.

Or Islam because it’s a “minority religion”, for that matter.

[tomndebb]

@Velocity

Let’s not make false equivalencies.

Given the partisan nature of the initial silly, unsupported claim, the “equivalence” is hardly false.

[Kimstu]

@Dr.Strangelove

Take homosexuality for instance. Several decades ago, homosexuality was considered deviant, while today–in the western world–it’s been almost completely normalized.

Recall that many non-western societies originally didn’t consider homosexuality “deviant”, at least not in any socially dangerous sense, until western colonizers took them over. Modern westerners are nowadays denouncing other cultures for the homophobic attitudes that the westerners of a previous era went to great pains to instill in them.

[QUOTE=Dr. Strangelove]
Christianity has historically been normalized and I don’t wish that to continue because I think it does great harm to society. I want people to see it as an evil bronze age myth. I want children to see it that way so that they don’t join the cult, or fall away when they become adults.

Islam is an even worse example of religion and while it has not been fully normalized in the West, I don’t wish that to ever be the case. I want it to continue being seen as an evil myth started by a pedophile.

[/quote]

The trouble with that approach is that when you encourage people to hate a religion by means of spreading bigoted lies about the religion, once people find out you were lying they are apt to resent and distrust you.

Gay rights were not achieved by smearing their opponents as “pedophiles”. The way to reduce religious oppression in a society is by supporting religious freedom and religiously neutral secular legal codes, on the grounds of fairness, liberty and peace. Not by trying to paint any particular religion(s) as some kind of mythically evil boogeyman that must be dreaded and shunned.

[Human_Action]

@A_isha

And I’m having a really difficult time understanding how telling him that the interpretation of Islam favored by this group was the way the texts should be followed and that Muslims with a moderate message are going against the Qur’an, the hadith, and 1400 years of scholarly opinion would have dissuaded him in any way, shape, or form as opposed to encouraging him.

Separation from and/or contempt for mainstream society is pretty essential to a cult, so I’d agree fully.

@Velocity

Islam gets a lot of defense by liberals because it’s a minority religion in America. But should that really be a factor in supporting it? Should something automatically be defended just because it’s in the minority?

“Islam should be treated like any other religion” isn’t really a defense, it’s just common decency.

@Dr.Strangelove

I want people to see it as an evil bronze age myth.

…

I want it to continue being seen as an evil myth started by a pedophile.

I continue to be baffled by non-religious people folk who fall over themselves calling things they don’t like “evil”. Robert163 does this as well…what’s with such religious thinking in a non-religious person?

[drad_dog]

@Kimstu

Recall that many non-western societies originally didn’t consider homosexuality “deviant”, at least not in any socially dangerous sense, until western colonizers took them over. Modern westerners are nowadays denouncing other cultures for the homophobic attitudes that the westerners of a previous era went to great pains to instill in them.
The trouble with that approach is that when you encourage people to hate a religion by means of spreading bigoted lies about the religion, once people find out you were lying they are apt to resent and distrust you.

Gay rights were not achieved by smearing their opponents as “pedophiles”. The way to reduce religious oppression in a society is by supporting religious freedom and religiously neutral secular legal codes, on the grounds of fairness, liberty and peace. Not by trying to paint any particular religion(s) as some kind of mythically evil boogeyman that must be dreaded and shunned.

You really want to say that westerners instilled homophobia in all these other societies? They must be the white Devil.

[Dr.Strangelove]

@Kimstu

Recall that many non-western societies originally didn’t consider homosexuality “deviant”, at least not in any socially dangerous sense, until western colonizers took them over. Modern westerners are nowadays denouncing other cultures for the homophobic attitudes that the westerners of a previous era went to great pains to instill in them.

To be clear, I wasn’t trying to connect homophobia with religion there. I was using it as an example of an idea which–in recent US history–lost quite a lot of stigma, and in the process led to a great expansion of rights.

@Kimstu

The trouble with that approach is that when you encourage people to hate a religion by means of spreading bigoted lies about the religion, once people find out you were lying they are apt to resent and distrust you.

Sure. So I don’t do that.

If you take issue with my use of “pedophile”, since the word assumes a modern view of the treatment of women and children–well, that just reinforces the point. A moral system from that era has no applicability to today.

I think it would be a mistake to minimize the harm that religion does. Painting it as somehow neutral continues the status quo. I want it gone–I want people to see it as an evil holdover from a dead era, and one that has no place among modern thinking.

Again, I don’t expect the message will reach many adults. But kids might be a different story, and the US at least is very slowly moving in the right direction.

[Dr.Strangelove]

@Human_Action

I continue to be baffled by non-religious people folk who fall over themselves calling things they don’t like “evil”. Robert163 does this as well…what’s with such religious thinking in a non-religious person?

I’m baffled as well. “Evil” has zero religious connotation to me. The world has bad people and bad ideas in it. They’re bad not because of demons but because they are destructive. I take as axiomatic various values–such as that of life, freedom from suffering, etc.–and from that infer whether a thing is good or bad. Sufficiently bad things I label evil.

Maybe some religious nuts think that evil can only originate from Satan. I don’t care. I think it stems from irrationality and mental illness.

[MrQwertyasd]

@Human_Action

There, he was socially isolated (his phone SIM destroyed), and indoctrinated by an atmosphere where radical violence was considered “quite normal”, and discussion centered around where to go fight.

So, basically a cult.

Just sounds like the military.

[Arcite]

I was disappointed to see that Construct has been banned, because I agreed with him. Islam should be banned in the West.

[Trinopus]

Because the history of banning religions has worked out so well in the past.

[elucidator]

@Arcite

I was disappointed to see that Construct has been banned, because I agreed with him. Islam should be banned in the West.

Oh, dear. I won’t inquire about the mechanics of your, ah, solution. Not at all sure I want to know. No, come to think I am sure. I don’t.

[Kimstu]

@drad_dog

You really want to say that westerners instilled homophobia in all these other societies? They must be the white Devil.

What do you mean, “all these other” societies? I never claimed that western colonialism was the only source of homophobia in the non-western world.

But western colonizers did work assiduously to codify rejection and prohibition of same-sex sexual behavior in the legal systems they created for their non-western colonies, as well as propagating an interpretation of Christianity that was firmly homophobic.

@Dr. Strangelove

If you take issue with my use of “pedophile”, since the word assumes a modern view of the treatment of women and children–well, that just reinforces the point. A moral system from that era has no applicability to today.

It would be more accurate to say that typical moral views from that era on the particular subjects of child betrothal and age of consent have no applicability to today. It would be false to claim that all aspects of medieval moral codes are equally distant from modern ones.

It would also be false to claim, even in accordance with modern views of sexual morality, that Muhammad was in any sense a “pedophile” as modern medicine defines the term. Recall that the historical evidence about his married life strongly suggests that most of it was spent in happy and sexually fulfilling relationships with wives older than himself. And there’s no confirmation that he ever actually had sex with his child-bride while she was pre-pubescent (which would have been the definition for “too young for sex” according to most marital codes of the time).

In short, the statement “Muhammad was a pedophile” is such a misleading distortion of the known historical evidence about his life that it basically amounts to a bigoted and ignorant slur. That’s not a good way to win any converts to your anti-religion stance who don’t already agree with you.

@Dr. Strangelove

I think it would be a mistake to minimize the harm that religion does.

Sure, but it would also be a mistake to minimize the good that religion does. If you lie to kids by stressing modern secular negative depictions of historical religion while avoiding mention of religious figures and institutions promoting decent and compassionate behavior, kids are eventually going to figure out that you’ve got an axe to grind and stop trusting your claims.