# Okay France, what the hell are you thinking? (Free Speech) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293 "2015-01-30T01:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/21 "2015-01-30T05:58:27Z")
This isn’t just a general issue of how much free speech France has. I think the OP was making the specific point that when a country is in the midst of a public campaign of support for free speech, it’s hypocritical for that country to condemn somebody for what they’re saying. You shouldn’t simultaneously say “We love and support free speech” while arresting seventy people for saying the wrong thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/22 "2015-01-30T06:14:38Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I don’t believe Confederate rah-rah-ing should be illegal. I really, really wish it were a lot less socially acceptable than it is, though. Especially when people with no sense of history whatsoever alternate between “USA! USA!” and displaying a Confederate flag. They honor traitors and wave a traitorous symbol, and yet they call others traitors for opposing American imperialism. Similarly, I’ll never forget the time I saw a bumper sticker with a picture of the Confederate flag flying over either the Capitol or the White House, with the caption “I Have a Dream.” > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I usually Can. Not. Stand. jingoistic “America, Fuck Yeah!” posturing, but this is one time when I have to say that I am an unabashed American supremacist. The right to freely express your opinion is absolutely contingent on the right of hateful, ignorant assholes to express theirs. Neo-Nazis and others operate with restrictions on their speech and symbols in many countries, but they still operate, thus necessitating the actions of brave antifa in physically confronting them, so as to never let the fascists have the streets. Just like in the US! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/23 "2015-01-30T07:10:40Z")
What are we thinking ? Weeeell, y’all remember 9/11 ? How \*you \*guys were at that time ? The public discourse around then ? It’s kinda like that. One minister even mouthed off that “Of course, we’ll need a French Patriot Act”. Taken to task by journalists, she admitted she didn’t even know what was in it. It’s just a shitty time, some people are going stir fry crazy and the \*real \*bad guys are jumping on the bandwagon to try and enact every liberticide, xenophobic or police-statish laws they’d been dreaming about for years, decades even. All under the “mandate” given by the Charlie demonstration, which was the largest there ever has been in France. Yes, it’s absolutely disgusting to me (couldn’t you tell ?), and to plenty of other little people. But at the same time we feel kind of helpless to stop it. There’s an inevitability to stupidity. On the plus side, as \*\*2gich1 \*\*says, the surge of retardation and glurge on our Facebooks and TVs exposes the utter shittiness many people had been keeping hidden so long. So now we know who to kick in the shins, going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/24 "2015-01-30T13:40:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not uncommon in Europe. But they come from a different tradition what with 2 World Wars fought there. We (Americans) might feel differently about Free Speech if we had a similar experience. Security vs Freedom. We Americans have been unusually secure wrt wars, so we tip a bit more towards Freedom, but human nature is the same the world over. Some Americans who have gone thru similar experiences became even more Free Speech advocates. For example, George Takai (Mr. Sulu), who spent his childhood in an American internment camp, is a strong advocate for free speech. He’s an announcer on the Howard Stern show, and accepted a free speech award for that. He’s also a gay activist, but has argued with people in the gay community who try to shut down speech from anti-gay bigots. He responds to such bigots, but by more speech of his own, often using humor. See for example,[his response to](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s1iQODC5OI) Tim Hardaway’s homophobic comments. (And that approach seems to change people more than attacking their right to speak – Hardaway now says he regrets his comments, and was one of the first to sign onto a petition urging legal gay marriage in his state.) ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/25 "2015-01-30T13:55:51Z")
> [@2gigch1](#): > > As much as I dislike hate speech it is useful for identifying idiots quickly. Please let me steal this line from you and use it wherever appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/26 "2015-01-30T19:38:15Z")
No problem sir. I say it, I don’t own it. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/27 "2015-01-30T20:24:54Z")
> [@2gigch1](#): > > As much as I dislike hate speech it is useful for identifying idiots quickly. > [@BubbaDog](#): > > Please let me steal this line from you and use it wherever appropriate. > [@2gigch1](#): > > No problem sir. I say it, I don’t own it. 2gigch1 is right he/she doesn’t own it. I do. I just trademarked that phrase. 2gigch1, you now owe me five bucks. And I’m keeping an eye on you Bubbadog. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/28 "2015-01-30T20:45:26Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > They honor traitors and wave a traitorous symbol, and yet they call others traitors for opposing American imperialism. Similarly, I’ll never forget the time I saw a bumper sticker with a picture of the Confederate flag flying over either the Capitol or the White House, with the caption “I Have a Dream.” [On that note…](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B__94KD0pLjWamMxRWw4SXdxTWM/view?usp=sharing) (suitable for wallpaper) ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/29 "2015-01-30T20:50:40Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > [On that note…](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B__94KD0pLjWamMxRWw4SXdxTWM/view?usp=sharing) (suitable for wallpaper) Thanks. I was wondering how many things like that had been made. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/30 "2015-01-30T20:55:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Wait, when did France sign the US Bill of Rights? The ideals of the rights enumerated there (and, per 10th Am., not) are hardly limited to Americans. France _is_, like the US, a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Which was, incidentally, final-drafted by a Frenchman, and adopted by the UN General Assembly meeting in Paris. > [@](#): > > Article 18. > > ``` > Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. > > ``` > > Article 19. > > ``` > Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/31 "2015-01-30T21:01:32Z")
> [@2gigch1](#): > > As much as I dislike hate speech it is useful for identifying idiots quickly. No kidding. Same with bumper stickers. I’ve probably avoided a few accidents by keeping my distance from The Crazy on the highway. Its nice that they Out themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/32 "2015-01-30T21:06:13Z")
Because we didn’t overreact to 9/11 at all. We didn’t pass any new laws or start torturing POWs or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/33 "2015-01-30T21:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=Kobal2] What are we thinking ? Weeeell, y’all remember 9/11 ? How you guys were at that time ? The public discourse around then ? It’s kinda like that. [/QUOTE] Kind of like what? I don’t recall any infringements on freedom of speech in the US following 9/11. Sure, there were other things, but I’m not sure what you are referring to exactly. (Not meant to be snarky, despite this being the Pit, just wondering what connection you are making between what the OP is saying and what the US did after 9/11). [QUOTE=El\_Kabong] OK, so we’re going back to sneering at the French now? That’s a relief, the past couple weeks really threw me off. [/QUOTE] 😕 Doesn’t look much like knee jerk French bashing to me. Seems a legitimate question and a legitimate instance of hypocrisy to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/34 "2015-01-30T21:28:17Z")
[We’ll see you and raise you, France.](http://www.salon.com/2015/01/30/if_they_can_imprison_barrett_brown_they_can_do_it_to_anyone/) ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/35 "2015-01-30T21:40:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I remember my first trip out of the country, where I visited the Anne Frank house and saw a display about neo-Nazis. Part of the display was a condemnation of the US for allowing neo-Nazis to keep doing their neo-Nazi thing. Sounds like a really poorly thought out display that has no place in a museum. If I were you I would’ve been embarrassed for them. Free speech isn’t really something that should be strictly an American ideal but instead a universal one. France is pretty clearly in the wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/36 "2015-01-30T21:40:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Kind of like what? I don’t recall any infringements on freedom of speech in the US following 9/11. Sure, there were other things, but I’m not sure what you are referring to exactly. “My country, right or wrong !”. “If you disagree with the President about anything, you hate America”. And, well, the Patriot Act & Guantanamo for more extreme measures. Or the TSA. I wasn’t really following the news back then, and of course I didn’t live in the US - but I do remember the debates here - and even in this bastion of limp-wristed, bleeding-hearted librulz ; many were going fruit loops with that nonsense. It was a bizarre sight, for real. I don’t recall any particular infringement on freedom of speech per se - although the Dixie Chicks thing could be construed as one - but then that tends to be more sacro-sanct in the US zeitgeist than in France. Unlike, say, privacy 😛 (sorry, cheap shot, couldn’t resist). Regardless, I don’t think you can argue with a straight face that America reacted to 9/11 in perfectly rational and measured fashion. And I’m not saying that to bash America, or to excuse what my country’s doing in any way - as I said, I find what’s going on despicable and, yes, scary. A lot more scary than a handful of gun-toting fanatics. At this point I’m just hoping we don’t wind up invading Uzbekistan over it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/37 "2015-01-30T22:17:52Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Sounds like a really poorly thought out display that has no place in a museum. If I were you I would’ve been embarrassed for them. Free speech isn’t really something that should be strictly an American ideal but instead a universal one. France is pretty clearly in the wrong here. And yet the curators thought that it was relevant and valuable. Europe generally does not tolerate Nazi speech. They’ve had some bad experiences with it. Nobody, and definitely not the US, gives absolute freedom of speech. We restrict speech. We restrict slander, copyright infringement, classified information, trade secrets, yelling “fire” in a crowded theater, etc. Europe tends to draw the line a little further back. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/38 "2015-01-31T07:02:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what IS the traditional European response to the slippery slope arguments Americans use to justify the breadth of freedom of speech we have? “That wouldn’t happen”? Typically, we: - look blankly at you, as one might at a precocious child who has asked a really stupid question thinking it is really clever - mumble something about there being no slope and it’s not slippery - pull ourselves together and explain that the argument ‘we have to do something bad now, because if we don’t, we’ll do something even worse later’ is only persuasive when dealing with Americans We feel just as comfortable not humouring vile hate speech as you do accepting it. Both approaches appear to work well enough in practice. Cheers Sandwich ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/39 "2015-01-31T07:19:36Z")
And I used to think Europeans were elitist douches. How wrong was I? ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/40 "2015-01-31T07:40:25Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > And I used to think Europeans were elitist douches. > > How wrong was I? And yet, jackbooted thugs have not taken over ANY of those countries recently, even though they have less freedom of hate speech. Sounds like there’s a hole in your theory, dearie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293.md?page=3)