# Okay France, what the hell are you thinking? (Free Speech) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293 "2015-01-30T01:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/41 "2015-01-31T08:18:56Z")
No, you’re right, now the jackbooted thugs just arrest 8-year-olds. Invisible, non-existent slippery slopes and all… ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/42 "2015-01-31T12:05:10Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > - pull ourselves together and explain that the argument ‘we have to do something bad now, because if we don’t, we’ll do something even worse later’ is only persuasive when dealing with Americans Wait, what’s the “something bad” France or Europe is presently avoiding? _Having_ free speech? > [@Sandwich](#): > > We feel just as comfortable not humouring vile hate speech as you do accepting it. Both approaches appear to work well enough in practice. I would think being able to shush views you abhor was generally _more_ comfortable, but that’s not a recommendation. Also, I believe I’ve heard of more “hate” violence in Europe than America in any time frame back from the present you care to name, so I’m not sure about the assessment that the two approaches work as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/43 "2015-01-31T12:23:54Z")
Are the Americans on here really suggesting there are no similar limitations to free speech in the US? France should be within it’s rights to define free speech any way it wishes. As a democratic nation state it has it’s own boundaries as to what is admissable or not. Right now I see a state struggling to come to terms with a disaffected religous minority population it has not had to confront before(at least not since it dealt with the Huguenots). Im therefore not surprised France is winging it on this issue as it goes along. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/44 "2015-01-31T13:04:52Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > No, you’re right, now the jackbooted thugs just arrest 8-year-olds. > > Invisible, non-existent slippery slopes and all… While I don’t disagree that the action here was problematic by US standards, you do your argument no favors by misrepresenting what happened. The 8-year-old was not arrested as far as I can tell, and no charges were filed against him. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/45 "2015-01-31T13:29:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t recall any particular infringement on freedom of speech per se - although the Dixie Chicks thing could be construed as one - but then that tends to be more sacro-sanct in the US zeitgeist than in France. . That wasn’t an issue of free speech. The Dixie Chicks weren’t sent to jail and waterboarded for their statements (even though a lot of people would’ve approved of that). If you say something publicly that is controversial, people will react. That’s to be expected, and in a free society debate should be encouraged. What’s not to be expected or encouraged or acceptable is being arrested and charged by the government for saying something controversial (with exceptions for the “fire in a crowded theatre” rule). > [@](#): > > Regardless, I don’t think you can argue with a straight face that America reacted to 9/11 in perfectly rational and measured fashion. That’s quite an understatement… ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/46 "2015-01-31T15:13:14Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Are the Americans on here really suggesting there are no similar limitations to free speech in the US? That American police officers would make it a criminal matter for child to not observe a moment of silence? Hell, I’m not only suggesting it I’m stating it as an absolute fact. Where we draw the line is a few light years away from where this French jurisdiction does. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/47 "2015-01-31T16:39:17Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > That American police officers would make it a criminal matter for child to not observe a moment of silence? Hell, I’m not only suggesting it I’m stating it as an absolute fact. Where we draw the line is a few light years away from where this French jurisdiction does. Im not talking of a minutes silence. Im talking about the curtailing of free speech. The US really isn’t that much better in terms of its attitude to free speech. The US may crack down on free speech in other directions but my god it’s limits do exist in the states. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/48 "2015-01-31T17:17:43Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Im not talking of a minutes silence. Im talking about the curtailing of free speech. The US really isn’t that much better in terms of its attitude to free speech. The US may crack down on free speech in other directions but my god it’s limits do exist in the states. Agreed it’s hypocritical of the US to claim it believes in free speech when it locks up people who engage in fraud or when it arrests crime bosses who order underlings to commit murder. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/49 "2015-01-31T17:32:01Z")
The kid wasn’t arrested or tortured or anything, and it doesn’t look like the questioning turned up anything serious, but that doesn’t mean it was wrong. The kid expressed support for a serious criminal act, and checking that he hadn’t picked that attitude up from actually being exposed to criminal behaviour seems fairly sensible to me. If he’d expressed support for child abuse, or even something like shoplifting, no-one would be surprised if the police went round to check up on the family and ask a few questions, why should this be different? Just because it’s politically charged? I’m not claiming there are no concerning overreactions happening in France, but this really doesn’t sound like one to me. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/50 "2015-01-31T20:12:51Z")
Americans don’t have free speech. It costs a small fortune to collect and store all of that data. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/51 "2015-01-31T20:14:28Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > That wasn’t an issue of free speech. The Dixie Chicks weren’t sent to jail and waterboarded for their statements (even though a lot of people would’ve approved of that). > > If you say something publicly that is controversial, people will react. That’s to be expected, and in a free society debate should be encouraged. Yes and no. I’m not super informed on the whole shebang, but I was given to understand that some town councils/mayors had cancelled concert bookings - it’s one thing to piss of crowds or generate boycotts, but when the mayor tells you to take a hike, because of a thing you said, that’s coming closer to state censorship. It’s not _quite_ it (because naturally nobody has a right to a concert hall, or a right to play music or whatever), but it still warrants one raised eyebrow. [QUOTE=Bruce Wayne] That American police officers would make it a criminal matter for child to not observe a moment of silence? Hell, I’m not only suggesting it I’m stating it as an absolute fact. Where we draw the line is a few light years away from where this French jurisdiction does. [/QUOTE] Well, that all depends. Is the child filming the police officer ? 😉 [QUOTE=Fuzzy\_Wuzzy] France should be within it’s rights to define free speech any way it wishes. As a democratic nation state it has it’s own boundaries as to what is admissable or not. Right now I see a state struggling to come to terms with a disaffected religous minority population it has not had to confront before\*\*(at least not since it dealt with the Huguenots)\*\*. [/QUOTE] That’s actually quite on point : the successful French strategy to deal with the 17th-18th century wars of religion, after a few failed goes at “killing everybody wearing the wrong kind of cross”, turned out to be “EVERYBODY SHUT THE FUCK UP, y’all are French and that’s that”, with the emerging State enforcing a neutral stance and stomping on extremists of either stripe. And that’s still pretty much what today’s whole post-Charlie “national unity” argument and speechifying is about - emphasizing to everybody that, regardless of any other details, French people are French first and foremost, that we’re all in this together and we can’t kill 'em all anyway, so fukken deal with it. The problem is that, while we still go “SHUT THE FUCK UP, y’all are French and that’s the end of it” to Muslim immigrants and their kids… we also kinda go “Oh, and BTW, should y’all ever dream you’re French, you better apologize when you wake up”. Naturally, it doesn’t work quite as well as the first time around… ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293/52 "2015-01-31T21:09:27Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > The kid wasn’t arrested or tortured or anything, and it doesn’t look like the questioning turned up anything serious, but that doesn’t mean it was wrong. The kid expressed support for a serious criminal act, and checking that he hadn’t picked that attitude up from actually being exposed to criminal behaviour seems fairly sensible to me. > > If he’d expressed support for child abuse, or even something like shoplifting, no-one would be surprised if the police went round to check up on the family and ask a few questions, why should this be different? Just because it’s politically charged? > > I’m not claiming there are no concerning overreactions happening in France, but this really doesn’t sound like one to me. Yes, that does makes sense when viewed as a single incident. I was conflating it with the other arrests made across the country. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, that all depends. Is the child filming the police officer ? 😉 > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed it’s hypocritical of the US to claim it believes in free speech when it locks up people who engage in fraud or when it arrests crime bosses who order underlings to commit murder. A few things. I have watched most if not all of those videos on YouTube where some person with a video camera argues with a cop over filming the police(the open carry videos too). I have rarely to never sympathized with the police officers in any of those videos. Most of these videos take place in the U.S. because it’s a fad right now. But, I know I’ve watched at least one video filmed in London and I would bet that if people filmed police in Europe to like they do here you would get similar reactions from European police officers. This hardly proves hypocrisy on the part of the U.S., nor does the fact that fraud/conspiracy/racketeering is illegal, because it usually involves other crimes such as stealing, murder, tax evasion, etc … and those are considered crimes in Europe as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-france-what-the-hell-are-you-thinking-free-speech/711293.md?page=2)